It is delayed.
Mining Ledger will be a boon for Corp and Alliance level income.
It allows CEOâs to set taxes for each person mining raw materials.
While the refinery itself will allow a second and third tax for the reactions run and reprocessing.
No more free loading for miners - Everything you do now will have separate taxes.
Bottom up income stream - It sure is - The bottom level does all the work while the upper levels get the benefits.
Fleet mining trackers will likely be created using the API that the ledger has
Time to retire the Rorqual and Exhumers and break out the ratting carriers again.
At least with ratting you only pay one tax.
in that case leave your organisation because itâs â â â â .
2 Likes
Are you saying that the mining ledger will tell those with access to it âwhoâ is ninja mining?
Presuming ninja mining is carried out by someone outside the corp/alliance that holds the moon.
If yes, then this is very broken and needs to be removed.
2 Likes
Yes, it tracks people who mine the moons that you placed a structure on in order to claim, after a long enough delay that it canât be used as an intel tool, primarily to allow functional taxation.
Seriously?
You really think Alliances that have survived on moon income for years are now going to just give it to line members?
Are you that naive ?
1 Like
Being in an alliance is optional. If you donât agree with what your alliance does, you do not have to be part of it.
LOL, this is getting even funnier - Now youâre saying Corps will be able to tax ninja miners.
Iâm not sure I want to take the risk of hitting someoneâs moon if they are going to be able to tax me on it.
As an intel tool, it will be ideal - Even with a delay it tells âby name, corp and or allianceâ who is ninja mining. So the ninja miner gets to hit a moon once, from then on the group who own it know exactly who to watch for.
The API for the mining ledger should not provide any information for anyone whoâs API is not in the register for that group. I have no problem with it telling them X amount was mined without permission but not who mined it.
1 Like
Missed the point (or avoided it) completely.
How does a member of the CSM not see the problems with an API based tool giving free intel on someone who has not given permission for intel to be gathered on them?
3 Likes
No, itâs intended to allow people to tax mining ops properly without having to do the space paperwork that goes with that. I used to participate in Alliance mining ops when I was a player and it sucked having to track that kind of thing.
Yes, you have to deal with people knowing that you stole from them. Think of it like CCTV, they now know you did it but thereâs nothing they can do about it unless they find you or you go to the same moon again (which will be on a minimum week long cycle due to refinery mechanics).
In that case what was your point? That Alliances shouldnât have ways of generating income? That taxation is theft? I genuinely am struggling to see your outrage here at people operating in a completely optional and consensual relationship here.
Sorry was adding my issue as you replied.
Save you scrolling back
The API for the mining ledger should not provide any information for anyone whoâs API is not in the register for that group. I have no problem with it telling them X amount was mined without permission but not who mined it.
1 Like
Because itâs intel in the loosest sense, and I think we fundamentally disagree on what advantages you should have. I think you should 100% be able to steal from people if they donât mine or defend their stuff, but I think having a way to know whoâs stolen from me hours or days after the event is also a necessity. If you disagree with me their then thatâs fine, but Iâd need to see a well reasoned out argument as to why as opposed to the sophistry youâre currently posting.
Yeah, we just fundamentally disagree there then. I would like a system where the most options are available, this opens up 0.5 moon mining to being a free-for-all but please pay tax endeavour amongst other things.
I fully agree that it shouldnât be able to be used to catch you in the act - that would be a terrible advantage for the API to give and I fought against that - but I think knowing that you were robbed after the time has passed so you can engage with that person about it is also important.
Look at this from the NRDS perspective I operate from - Iâd like to leave my moons open to be mined by anyone and then have them pay a tax, and to do that I need information on whoâs been mining my moons so that I can contact them. Whether they then pay is up to them, and how I respond if they donât pay is up to me. I see that as more engaging gameplay than simply not allowing a system like that to function.
1 Like
OkâŚ
Watch lists were removed to help stop tracking of individuals. The mining ledger is giving intel on a particular players activities, to me that is no better than having that person on a watch list - Over a few weeks you get, online times, locations.
Worst case - A group creates a tool to track ninja miners in real time. You can already see when someone is online if their API is registered with your group. Now the mining ledger is giving the ability to track those whoâs API they donât have. Delayed or not, this is bad.
Never underestimate those who play Eve - Given the tools (which CCP is providing) they will find a way to abuse them.
4 Likes
What makes you think that this is tracked?
This is a nightmare scenario for me too. I really, really hate the âweaponisedâ uses of the API, and think there should be at least a dayâs delay on this, which would solve the problem of real time tracking. You simply know that some people stole from your moon, and now itâs your choice whether to try and hunt them down on the next moon timer or not.
I also think youâre really overestimating how frequent moon mining ops are going to be, given the week drag minimum and ~2month max. Youâre not going to be ninja mining the same moon repeatedly day in day out, youâre going to be looking for the fields that people havenât touched yet and taking the juiciest bits and then dancing away. You then wonât be coming back there for a minimum of 10 days (3 day despawn + 7 day beam).
The thing about ninjas, right, is that they wear black and operate in the shadows.
Because⌠now lie down and brace yourself for this⌠because they donât want anyone to know who they are.
Because they are doing nefarious stuffs. For folks who donât want their nefarious stuffs to be public knowledge.
I hate to say it, but this mining project, the great moon goo nerf of 2017, threatens to break the scale on the retardometer. Everything about it seems to be a shabbily contrived way of fixing the previous shabby contrivance.
Some wolf puppies are born with two heads and no eyes and, in the wild, they would become food for more adequately formed creatures.
Surely the CCP staff with vision have already moved slowly away from this train wreck?
2 Likes
Querns has been posting extensively that Goons are no longer dependent on moon income in anticipation of the moon mining change.
Now that moon mining is not the sole occupation of corp or alliance alts making easy but boring pickups at various moon towers, and requires player participation, Alliances can share some of the wealth with line members on the ops (via tracked taxation, voluntary payments of materials or isk.) Now the percentage⌠could vary wildly. âDonât you know thereâs a war on? We need you to turn in all the materials!â
but I think knowing that you were robbed after the time has passed so you can engage with that person about it is also important.
Why do you need to know âwhoâ it was - Just knowing when it was should be enough.
There is no advantage to knowing who it was, except to target that individual.
Knowing when you were robbed is enough intel to allow you to counter it if you choose.
As for the NRDS setup, I donât know how that would could be solved - I do believe though that once a tax is set it is automatically deducted. The player canât say - Iâm not paying you.
Sorry donât have enough info on how the taxing of miners will be achieved.
Presuming a group who is being ninjaâd only has one moon the problems are minimal - Looking at it realistically, groups with multiple moons can gather info on individuals over a relavtively short period of time.
As i said already - Knowing you got robbed and when should be enough intel. Knowing who it was is not necessary for anything other than revenge.
You donât need to mine the same moon for the intel to be of use. Coalitions, friends, etc all share intel.
A group only needs to have 7 moons to have daily ops and gather the free intel. Yes it is an extreme example but this is Eve, where extreme is the norm.
If youâre mining from someoneâs moons uncontested 7 days a week, they probably have bigger problems than hunting you down TBH.
I would argue that âit being necessary for revengeâ is a part of why the Ledger should exist. It will allow me to know which people are stealing from me - again, an NRDS thing comes into play here, I donât shoot people by default until they screw me, so knowing that you have screwed me is important.
Still, as you listed this as a negative, what kind of ârevengeâ do you picture that would be unhealthy or negatively impact game health - disregard EULA breaching stuff because thatâs a rabbit hole I do not wish to go down.
If they choose to mine from the structures that the other people have put up - and only if thatâs the case. You are not being logged as you jump through a gate, you are being specifically tracked for stealing from someoneâs structure, in literal line of sight of it. When siphons were in game we knew who had placed them there as itâs something the game tells you outside of the API, I donât feel Ninja Mining (which serves the same purpose) should necessarily be different there.
Still, thereâs a lot of concern from your end about gathering info on individuals vs gathering info on activities - why is that? Do you feel that attributing your activities to you is something that shouldnât be possible? If you are concerned about people identifying the patterns of moons you choose and then trapping you - as youâve treated robbing people as a routine part of your career - I donât see that as something inherently negative. Shouldnât some onus on making sure you canât be caught be on you?