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Mid-Grade Freighters
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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#1 - 2014-06-18 02:30:21 UTC
Hi...

Forgive me but I haven't kept up with all the freighter discussions and everything. I don't want to get into the discussion about whether people agree with the recent freighter changes or not or stuff about ganking. Personally I think working to improve things in any way is better than keeping STALE areas of the game. Even if it isn't perfect it can be tweaked.

Ultimately what I would want in the freighter area is a mid-grade ship. Something that has around 150,000-200,000m3 of space or whatever makes sense. The recent changes gave the Occator a hold that has 52,500m3. This is great and I think was a smart move... but the reality of what CCP missed was that anyone that wants to move a bit more had to upgrade there ship by a HUGE amount to something like an Obelisk which has 440,000m3.

Where did the MIDDLE GROUND GO?

I think it is obvious that we need something in the middle here. Something that is moves and has enough mod slots to be in between the Occator and Obelisk level. It is just crazy that I have to buy something like an Obelisk or Carrier to move that stuff when all I need is something like 200k moved.

This would allow people that need to move smaller amounts not risk a costly ship like an Obelisk, etc and honestly even give more options to gankers... Either way I think any person that looks at the game in some sort of realistic fashion can see the large gap here.

Maybe I missed a perfect ship for this and forgive me. I certainly am not expert in the game, but in real life you don't have a car that fits two seats and then only one that fits 8 people. You have ones that fit 4, 5, etc...

Just an idea....
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#2 - 2014-06-18 02:47:40 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Occator a hold that has 52,500m3.

Changes gave the Occator 62,500 in the fleet bay. If fit for cargo it fits 86k. So it is the midrange ship that's faster than the orca.
Mana Shian
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-06-18 02:50:27 UTC
Well, you can currently fit the Orca to carry around 100km3 of cargo. You might want to use that in the meantime.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#4 - 2014-06-18 02:52:15 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Occator a hold that has 52,500m3.

Changes gave the Occator 62,500 in the fleet bay. If fit for cargo it fits 86k. So it is the midrange ship that's faster than the orca.


I might be wrong but I am in an Occator right now. My fleet hangar is 52,500 and I have full cargo expanders and T2 rigs for optimization. The hangar is not affected by expanders or rigs.

Also 86k is great but that is not middle ground from 440,000. At least by my math...
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-06-18 03:01:20 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
[quote=HiddenPorpoise][quote=Xaldafax Caerleon]I might be wrong but I am in an Occator right now. My fleet hangar is 52,500...

You have Transport I. Transport V will get you 62,500. And you still have a regular cargohold, which rigs and expanders will affect (not that I recommend fitting a DST for cargo capacity, but if you really want to, you can)
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#6 - 2014-06-18 03:05:41 UTC
I think you're going to find that the middle ground is a bit impractical from a gameplay standpoint...

The ship will still have a high cost in comparison to t1 and t2 industrials, it would have, assuming standard "divide everything by 2" assumptions for middle ground, half the tank of a freighter and, from a ganking perspective, be just as easy to catch and destroy as a freighter.

So while it sounds good in theory, in practice if the ship were made to fill the middle ground exactly as you describe it it would be unusable, because everyone would be out to gank it on sight.

Transports and Blockade runners fill the middle ground you're looking for, you've just got to change the way you're thinking about hauling. It's not about the number of jumps you make with those ships, it's how much time you can cut off of your normal routes using their faster align and warp speed, along with their survivability to make multiple trips more safely.

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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#7 - 2014-06-18 03:07:37 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
[quote=HiddenPorpoise][quote=Xaldafax Caerleon]I might be wrong but I am in an Occator right now. My fleet hangar is 52,500...

You have Transport I. Transport V will get you 62,500. And you still have a regular cargohold, which rigs and expanders will affect (not that I recommend fitting a DST for cargo capacity, but if you really want to, you can)


Thanks for mentioning the transport 1 skill. I didn't see anything in the description talking about increasing hold with more skill. So I will adjust that...

But I still think that even with maxed skills, etc a mid-grade ship would be nice for those of us that don't want to buy a big freighter... hence why I am suggesting CCP looks at this gap.
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-06-18 03:31:04 UTC
I seem to see people using Orcas to fill this role.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#9 - 2014-06-18 03:37:24 UTC
Rob Kashuken wrote:
I seem to see people using Orcas to fill this role.


An orca is a mining vessel that has been used for this... not the same thing. Sure I can borrow my neighbor's extended 4 door super truck but it won't do the same thing as van, boxcar, semi, etc...

I get where you are coming across and support it but I am looking for something that provide more of a smaller ship feel and flexibility.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2014-06-18 03:44:52 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Rob Kashuken wrote:
I seem to see people using Orcas to fill this role.


An orca is a mining vessel that has been used for this... not the same thing. Sure I can borrow my neighbor's extended 4 door super truck but it won't do the same thing as van, boxcar, semi, etc...

I get where you are coming across and support it but I am looking for something that provide more of a smaller ship feel and flexibility.


You wont get a small ship with a much bigger ships cargo bay.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#11 - 2014-06-18 03:45:19 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Rob Kashuken wrote:
I seem to see people using Orcas to fill this role.


An orca is a mining vessel that has been used for this... not the same thing. Sure I can borrow my neighbor's extended 4 door super truck but it won't do the same thing as van, boxcar, semi, etc...

I get where you are coming across and support it but I am looking for something that provide more of a smaller ship feel and flexibility.


By that logic an Orca shouldn't be used as a mobile compact POS(Which it totally can be btw). The Orca is a multipurpose ship that gets bonuses to mining. Just because I use it for nefarious purposes and you use it for mining doesn't mean that it's the only way to use the ship. It fills the specified role you're talking about as others have hinted and mentioned. There's no need to bloat the game with an unnecessary filler ship that will be tiercidified later.

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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#12 - 2014-06-18 03:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Xaldafax Caerleon
Kaerakh wrote:
By that logic an Orca shouldn't be used as a mobile compact POS(Which it totally can be btw). The Orca is a multipurpose ship that gets bonuses to mining. Just because I use it for nefarious purposes and you use it for mining doesn't mean that it's the only way to use the ship. It fills the specified role you're talking about as others have hinted and mentioned. There's no need to bloat the game with an unnecessary filler ship that will be tiercidified later.


I am not trying to bloat the game with ships... I am focusing on USE CASE here... Simply put the large freighters are too costly and huge for moving mid volumes. There is nothing wrong with suggesting the possibility of having a better matched mid size ship.

The reality is we should have a "core ship" that you can then add mods too based on need and use case. So if my Orca could be downgreded and I could remove the mining option and slim it down some, then that would be fine by me as long as the cost dropped some. Form follows function... The ship would grown and shrink and look different based on the mods.

It is a suggestion... I have no clue why it turns into such a black and white discussion.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-06-18 04:08:42 UTC
Technically, JFs now with their lower base cargo fill the niche, unfortunately for a very steep cost, both in isk and skillz :)

The hauler ship line is also quite full, as a meaningful addition there would probably be the need to do some kind of crazy stuff, like turning the orca into t2 and making the t1 orca without a hangar, ore bay and with more general cargo space...
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-06-18 04:42:56 UTC
Although, thinking about it a little more, the Orca isn't a good solution to the issue, as it requires training up another shipline outside of the racial shipline people tend to train up for in making hauler alts.

A better solution may to revise the T1 industrials, in that all racial lines have 2, with one being a little more capacity - eg: Tarya as opposed to a Badger. The Tarya could be revised to be more of a mid-sized hauler, boosting cargo and reducing agility & warp.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-06-18 04:55:11 UTC
With the new Freighter changes, a midsized hauler of the orca variety would not be amiss, Drop the ship bay and add 200K to the cargo hold. a loss of a 400K ship maintenance bay ought to equal a 200k cargo at least,

of course if you want to go the eve is real route,
orcas with 490 k Fleet hangers with no ship or ore bay,
with a 490K ore bay.
with a 591k max cargo

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-06-18 05:11:10 UTC
I think a scaled-up version of the fast haulers that were mentioned would be a good idea. While the agility bonus would of course be comparatively negligible, you'd have a midrange ship with a very large cargohold, say the 200-500k max m3 range, with the room to fit tank for armor or shield, unlike the current haulers. In terms of isk/hr, it would definitely be less, but it would be significantly more secure and expedient if you're making a small run. Since it would also be a bit smaller mass-wise than a freighter, it would be easier to use in wh space.

A basic setup would be 10 fitting slots for all (whether or not rigs are viable are a question I'd leave open to you).

Amarr would have 1/3/6 slot loadout,
Gallente would have 2/3/5 slot loadout,
Minmatar would have 2/4/4 slot loadout,
Caldari would have 1/6/3 slot loadout

HP would scale along racial lines accordingly, and all would have very high ehp if fit for tank.

Bonuses would be 5% to agility and 5% to cargo hold per level.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#17 - 2014-06-18 05:19:04 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I think a scaled-up version of the fast haulers that were mentioned would be a good idea. While the agility bonus would of course be comparatively negligible, you'd have a midrange ship with a very large cargohold, say the 200-500k max m3 range, with the room to fit tank for armor or shield, unlike the current haulers. In terms of isk/hr, it would definitely be less, but it would be significantly more secure and expedient if you're making a small run. Since it would also be a bit smaller mass-wise than a freighter, it would be easier to use in wh space.

A basic setup would be 10 fitting slots for all (whether or not rigs are viable are a question I'd leave open to you).

Amarr would have 1/3/6 slot loadout,
Gallente would have 2/3/5 slot loadout,
Minmatar would have 2/4/4 slot loadout,
Caldari would have 1/6/3 slot loadout

HP would scale along racial lines accordingly, and all would have very high ehp if fit for tank.

Bonuses would be 5% to agility and 5% to cargo hold per level.



Thank you everyone for adding some ideas to this and definitely the above design... Having to train a whole different skillset and dealing with the cost of the bigger ships causes a gap that the simple progression that exists between lower T1 freighters and the move up to T2 and Blockade Runner, etc.. That next level BEFORE the big boy ships would really help people in being able to move stuff around.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-06-18 06:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dally Lama
Freighter with 3 x Bulkheads is that middle ground.
JF with 3 x Bulkheads even more so.
Orca....
DST....

I don't think they need to add anything else.

EDIT: I see your issue is with the size of the vessels. My opinion on it is that any ship moving 100k+ m3 like that should be rather massive. TBH the DST should be closer to Battleship size due to it's cargo capacity. *Perhaps* there could be a ship with 150k m3 that is something between a battleship and an Orca, but then again maxed out Nomad with Nomad implants will already move as fast as such a ship would.

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Anthar Thebess
#19 - 2014-06-18 06:45:31 UTC
As bad as it sounds ... i like the idea.
More ships is better , more variety is better.

While flying in higsec i see only freighters and orcas - adding frew more ships to this game will bring more life.
Let they be small freighters , but 100k of cargo hold and 100k of specialized cargo bay.
Make them cost around 100 - 200mil and people will use them.

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2014-06-18 07:15:03 UTC
I used to ask for something in that freight range. Then I actually started using freighters and I haven't undocked my Orca to move stuff since. If optimized for cargo, you can move just over 140,000 m3, (if you include the fleet hanger and use T2 rigs.) Then therws the 400,000 m3 hanger. But I still use the 'Fat Lady' over my Orca, even if I'm moving 50,000 m3.

The only reason to use a smaller hauler is that you haven't trained/bought a freighter yet.

Meanwhile, the reasons NOT to use something smaller include paper thin tanks resulting in all those 'mini-freighters' getting ganked within minutes of undocking.

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