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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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#441 - 2012-04-04 17:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Grikath wrote:
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.


Which in Unix terms is equal to dev/null.

Edit: actually no, it's more like starting a 100% RAM usage process in Windows 3.1. It gets done... eventually.

They need to hire like 10 times as many employess to make it acceptably fast.
The Fonz Presidium
#442 - 2012-04-04 18:44:57 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier.

You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx

Those may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk.

Actually, Sreegs is right.

The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do.


Okay, GTC can not be sold for isk, Only ingame PLEX, I'll agree with ya...
CCP needs to shut down secure GTC trading as it is a figment of my imagination.
Care Factor
#443 - 2012-04-04 18:47:22 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Chris Wheeler wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do.
Supply and demand will balance everything out. Illegals get deported, ore supply will drop causing prices to go up (and prices of everything else as well). Since ore prices are higher, it is now worthwhile for legal citizens to mine, which will increase supply and lower prices. Prices are going to bob around until they reach equilibrium. The Government (ccp) needs to enforce the laws they produce (ex: no bots) and let the market regulate itself. They are doing that and all legal citizens will benefit from it.
If making money was easy and the funnest thing in the game, inflation would skyrocket, but just like in the real world, the fun comes from SPENDING the money:)
Also, Sreegs rocks.


But after years of living and thriving in EvE, how can you have the heart to deport bots into the horrific conditions of other games. They've really silently accepted as part of EvE for years, funding alliances and supercaps and shouldering the grunt work!!! Don't their long hours and monotonous work count for anything? How can you strip their accounts of all they have produced?? Do you not have a heart?


Amnesty program? They keep their earnings, pay a fine, learn Icelandic: the start of a path to citizenship.
Care Factor
#444 - 2012-04-04 18:49:07 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Grikath wrote:
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.


Which in Unix terms is equal to dev/null.

Edit: actually no, it's more like starting a 100% RAM usage process in Windows 3.1. It gets done... eventually.

They need to hire like 10 times as many employess to make it acceptably fast.



So quit mass unsubbing:)
The Fonz Presidium
#445 - 2012-04-04 19:01:31 UTC
saiy'an wrote:
hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.

how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal?


Unless you got them using a purchase order for say 100 isk per unit then it shouldnt matter.
What is interesting is that they are saying they are going to claw back the isk, if they are going to reverse transactions then that would be a bit odd for consumable or destroyed things.

Your question goes to show something simple, RMT'ers will use contracts and markets to wash the items that they move. If you have buy orders up for 1% of an items value and someone fills it and they happen to be an RMT'er then you might need to explain, as the DEV is not going to get into the fine details then we will not know for sure. I would say that normal day to day market transactions are 100% safe unless your orders are showing some serious sign's that your trying to wash product. Few of those orders get filled, and generally the guys who place those orders are known.

I will not pretend that there's a easy way to spot legit vs bot or legit vs rmt. The ingame mechanics allow for scamming, overselling and underselling. RMT'ers do sell ingame products now for a fraction of the real value (You can catch them from time to time) so I know it does go on. It will be down to a GM or DEV to figgure out if those orders were to wash product or if they were a legit type of scam.

In the old contract days I would place orders up that isk sellers would fill and then report them. When the contract system came along and they could do things "private" then the ability for me to steal their isk was removed.

Just buy from the market and dont worry about it. Bot minerals and RMT isk flows through the markets in so many ways that it is doubtful you can buy any manufactured product that doesnt have a tie to RMT or Bots.

I for one and all for getting rid of BOTS and RMT. I am also all for getting rid of CCP's manipulation of the PLEX consumption. I am also for game fixes that would help stop Bots and secure gameplay.

I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference.
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2012-04-04 19:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Padme Amidala Naberrie
DeODokktor wrote:
I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference.


Nope. You and others like you with an agenda were asking loaded questions and in a lot of cases - while this may not apply to you directly - people were answering their own questions even though they didn't know what they were talking about or deliberately twisting the Dev's answers to suit their agenda and then using that as a stick to beat CCP with. Roll

PAN
WE FORM V0LTA
#447 - 2012-04-04 19:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynamiittiukko
Free month by turning in a random bot/RMT? I like the sound of that.

Oh, talking about gyms, could CCP possibly consider the idea of striking a deal with some chain of gyms? I'd kinda like the idea of a Get Fit 4 PLEX program too.

.d
Minmatar Republic
#448 - 2012-04-04 20:03:58 UTC
Dynamiittiukko wrote:
Oh, talking about gyms, could CCP possibly consider the idea of striking a deal with some chain of gyms? I'd kinda like the idea of a Get Fit 4 PLEX program too.


Plex for Sweat?

Flex for Plex?



Negative Ten.
#449 - 2012-04-04 20:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Thing is that you can buy a billion isk for $35 from ccp.

I heard in a eve song that a billion isk from *snip* Please do not post links to illegal sites. Spitfire was $56.98

So why anybody would rmt isk when ccp sells it for a lot less is beyond me,

They are tards why buy from a chinky farmer when you can do it legal from ccp.

i'm lost as to why risk and pay more.

[b]Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire

^^ my sig was awesome that naugty spitfire stole it for himself true story

United Recruitment Director.[/b]

Gallente Federation
#450 - 2012-04-04 20:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: FeralShadow
CCP Sreegs, Best Sreegs. After reading all of Sreeg's posts I just enjoyed how he mercilessly kept hammering down peoples' posts because they wouldn't stop posting dumb questions. Bravo sir!

Also, Stillman is hawt.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Caldari State
#451 - 2012-04-04 20:25:56 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:


Was thinking the same earlier, posted 1 or 2 pages ago on this thread. Sometimes I just have "big" transactions happening when me and my friend get loot in DED sites and we split the value between us before we even sell the thing so as to have just 1 person worry about the market. Call me paranoid but some assurance from Sreegs that this doesn't result in a flag would be nice =)


Even the loot from a couple DED sites probably isn't nearly enough to get you flagged as a RMT *seller*, which is the only thing that will get an immediate ban. The worst that could happen would be getting the isk removed, which you can petition back. Yes, that would suck. I'd still rather run that risk than allow the rampant growth of RMT and bots.
Pandemic Horde
#452 - 2012-04-04 21:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Rivur'Tam wrote:
Thing is that you can buy a billion isk for $35 from ccp.

I heard in a eve song that a billion isk from www.buyisk.com was $56.98

So why anybody would rmt isk when ccp sells it for a lot less is beyond me,

your price information is either plain incorrect or horribly outdated (I heard that 1bn ISK sells for 250$ - back in 2007).

as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs.

keeping track of RMT prices over time (and then comparing the data to PLEX prices and banwaves) might be an interesting little project.
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2012-04-04 22:50:42 UTC
dont forget about isk washiing VIA: fake ganks.

anyways good job. im not the least bit worried about the market it will balance itself out.
Caldari State
#454 - 2012-04-04 23:17:05 UTC
Nice!

well done ccp!

Noob question: Is the inflation of the last weeks linked with all these bannings?

Are there expected concequences to the market?
#455 - 2012-04-04 23:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Khadann wrote:
Nice!

well done ccp!

Noob question: Is the inflation of the last weeks linked with all these bannings?

Are there expected concequences to the market?


I have seen in system about 30% less bots in the last few days.

The effects might be visible in the coming weeks.

In the coming weeks we also have drones alloys being removed, this caused a big speculative surge.
In the next soon mini expansion they announced complete tier 0 items (with BPO) removal from all the loot tables.
Right now all those I know (and they are maaaaaany) are buying minerals like crazy. Prices are rising fast.

Plus we still have the ISK faucets pumping money in the system.

End result of all of this are prices going up. Prices going up don't necessarily mean inflation though, ISK faucets cause inflation but commodities prices are "just" globally shifting up in few shots.
Plucky Adventurers
#456 - 2012-04-04 23:57:50 UTC
there's atleast one very upset botter in this post. maybe sreegs should take a look?
Goonswarm Federation
#457 - 2012-04-05 00:18:15 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier.

You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx

Those may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk.

Actually, Sreegs is right.

The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do.


Okay, GTC can not be sold for isk, Only ingame PLEX, I'll agree with ya...
CCP needs to shut down secure GTC trading as it is a figment of my imagination.

Yes you can sell a GTC for ISK on the forums using the secure GTC trading feature. However what the buyer receives isn't a GTC but 60 days of time added to their account.
Ivy League
#458 - 2012-04-05 01:07:36 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:

as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs.


This. Simple economics dictates that RMT ISK has to be cheaper then GTC/PLEX-sourced ISK to the consumer, otherwise the consumer will do the smart thing and just buy a GTC and turn it into PLEX (or buy PLEX directly from CCP). In fact, it has to be "much" cheaper (for varying amounts of "must") in order for the consumer to take the illegal route of RMT over the sanctioned and protected route of GTC/PLEX.

GTC/PLEX is a very smart move by CCP. It takes the wind out of the sails of the RMT'ers, who now have to sell their product at a discount and it provides a legal, sanctioned, can't-be-scammed method of exchanging GTCs / PLEX. (We'll ignore the "getting scammed after you receive the PLEX in-game issue. That's on the player's head for being dumber then the average bear.)

When you pay some dodgy RMT site money-for-ISK, there's no guarantee other then word-of-mouth or reputation (hahaha) that you'll actually get what you paid for. Heck, probably at least some of them will try and serve up a trojan infection while you visit so they can steal your login details and clean out your wallet.
ISK Six
#459 - 2012-04-05 01:30:23 UTC
Chribba wrote:
This is an interesting topic and something that has been on my mind for years when it comes to my 3rd party business.

I have no way of knowing where ISK orginates from, and is also the reason why I don't ask because I would simply be lied to anyway. I however do practise caution and avoid assisting if I feel things are dodgy or I suspect RMT.

Another practise I take is to always try keep a record of buyer and seller and who ISK is being sent to.

For example ISK flows buyer->me->seller, rather than buyer->me->random alt created 2 days ago - that (I think) makes it easier for CCP to trace the flow as well, plus hopefully it keeps me out of trouble.

I also do report suspicious transfers as I don't wish to be banned myself and I do not support RMT. I do see the problems with loans that VV is talking about as that is a somewhat different thing compared to my 3rd party service.

I'd be happy to support CCP in any way I can and hope that they continue on discussing this with us should there be issues with how me and others provide services to help making it harder to RMT.

/c


Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)

It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way. I doubt this would happen in an extreme way, but most of the early replies in the thread did nothing to allay this concern, and plenty to aggravate it. Which is probably why there is so much in the way of OH GOD MY LOANS comments at this point.

Waiting until real scenarios exist and handling them and making policy off of those is fine if not a better way to deal with these situations than trying to guess beforehand. However, making comments to the effect of "our methods can do no wrong" or "there are no false positives" is not helpful, and are recognizable for the bluffs that they are. The very definition of a false positive is a mistaken classification. If the mistake is never recognized, the false positive is never identified, but it does not mean it does not exist.

Anyway, the security situation is complex, and there are going to be complex cases, as there have been complex cases before. Mistakes are made, it happens. Downplaying that comes off as indifference though, which is very, very bad. Any time a developer or someone in a position of power displays an attitude that can be taken as "there is no collateral damage / I don't care about collateral damage" that undermines said power and causes fear and distrust. It's not really security's problem that support isn't consistent with its handling of cases, but it needs to be CCP's problem. This just happens to be one of the first or only sane places where the fear of this problem can be expressed properly.

Please be aware of this.

As an aside, it looks like security has been stepped up a level, which is great, and I really like the effort put into getting feedback and reporting general information that has happened in the last week or so. Keep up the good work there.

Visit www.eohpoker.com and enjoy EVE's oldest ISK gaming service!

Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2012-04-05 01:50:49 UTC
Shanky McStabber wrote:
I have a question for Jersey Johnson.

Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services?

As per the CCP Want Ads forums:

5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service]


CCP Spitfire Post



I just want an answer to my previous question.
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