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New dev blog: Unified inventory

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Shadow Cartel
#541 - 2012-05-14 09:48:11 UTC
been struggling with it on sisi, sorry dont like it. I think I see what your trying to do but I dont think we asked for this. If this is in the next expansion thats fine BUT IT NEEDS TO BE OPTIONAL.

Seriously, please dont force this on people.
Void Alliance
#542 - 2012-05-14 09:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Maraner wrote:
been struggling with it on sisi, sorry dont like it. I think I see what your trying to do but I dont think we asked for this. If this is in the next expansion thats fine BUT IT NEEDS TO BE OPTIONAL.

Seriously, please dont force this on people.

Yes, make it optional / option to enable and or disable old style / new style.

Pierced Brosmen wrote:
The complete lack of CCP responces in this thread after the first day the blog came out is dissappointing and gives me an eerie feeling that team Game of Drones have "completed their task and moved on", and that the new inventory system will be forced upon us with it's flaws, regardless of what we think. Roll


PS, There is a monument in Amarr that's not wrecked yet Twisted

Maybe we should all go and protest again, make some Time Dialation .. etc..
#543 - 2012-05-14 11:29:21 UTC
Solution:

1. Keep this shiny new system for people who like it and feel that it is useful. Use a separate icon on the neocom bar for this. An inventory system should be used for managing your ermm...inventory. It should not replace the ability open the windows you use regularly with a single click or right-click.

2. Retain the following shortcuts to open SINGLE windows, and make them remember size and position:

Ships and items on the neocom bar to open SINGLE windows.
Right clicking on ship to open SINGLE windows for Cargo hold, Fuel Bay, Ore bay, Corp Hanger, Ship maintenance bay
Keep the double click on your hanger to open just your cargo in SINGLE window.

In space, clicking on your cargo icon should open your CARGO only, in a SINGLE window, remembering size and position.
Same applies to opening a wreck.

You get the part about a SINGLE window ?

This would go a long way to addressing a lot of the concerns most of us have.
Gallente Federation
#544 - 2012-05-14 13:48:43 UTC
CCP :: Please state the real rationale for developing this new inventory system. I know you have worked very hard on this for what seems like a long time. At this point, you need to swallow your pride and admit this sux.

If I play ANY other game, the UI is like lightning. In EvE, the UI is a series of wait states for just about every task I could mention. Try fitting a ship: I hover my mouse over the next mod waiting for the UI to finish clocking and achieve a stable state BEFORE I can click again and continue. Put plainly, I am faster than the UI, and I am considered a slow keyboardist by my PvP friends. The mod timers that can't seem to ever get synchronized is yet another quirky issue that we put up with.

In short, despite stated improvement, the current UI is slow, has many wait states, and is a generation behind any other modern game. Now you want us to go back to cave man times in terms of a clunky and poorly performing inventory system that makes simple tasks more cumbersome.

I don't understand the logic of this plan and corresponding new system that we will supposedly get whether or not we want it.

Lastly, I can tell you that this new system takes away some (actually a lot) of the fun factor by making the game more tedious. I'll just pose a question: is adding more tedium to the game experience going to impress the player base, and more importantly, new players, or will it have the opposite affect?

Massage parlor owners would not force their clients to get a sandpaper back rub, but could offer it as an option for some individuals who happen to like a painful experience.

Minmatar Republic
#545 - 2012-05-14 19:04:02 UTC
Considering that we are just a week away from the next major code release, what is the status of this change in UI functionality?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Masters of Flying Objects
#546 - 2012-05-14 19:05:05 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Considering that we are just a week away from the next major code release, what is the status of this change in UI functionality?

No change so farWhat?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

#547 - 2012-05-14 21:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Finally wrote a full response (includes an illustrative video). The UI still needs some work.
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2012-05-14 23:33:57 UTC
Thanks to Tippia for an excellent assessment of the new inventory system.

For me, it boils down to what appears to be failed programming and design issues.

The biggest one is "object inheritance rules". I have said many times in the past that CCP fails to handle object inheritance. This is exactly what TIppia recommends via the idea of a "root object". I can wholheartedly agree with this suggestion.

The other is my own edcuated guess. It looks like this system is built around a hierarchical backend database model, rather than a relational DB. The types of limitations I see, and that Tippia lists, are typically synonymous with hierarchical DBs and/or badly modeled relational DBs. If so, this may well be a core design issue that will take you back to the beginning to fix. If your data model can't support Grand Daddy objects and transfer their inheritable attributes, then the base design is flawed badly. Additionally, if DB model is relational but makes it difficult to create a "root object", then again, the data model is flawed.

Good luck with all this. RIgth now I'm having trouble seeing the silver lining.
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2012-05-15 00:23:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Finally wrote a full response (includes an illustrative video). The UI still needs some work.
A phenomenal write-up, sir.

I am completely on-board with your recommendations and solutions after having spent some quality time on Tranquility flying around and changing docked / undocked states several times. Holy confusion, large windows and unsaved states, Batman!

If CCP takes only one action over the next week, it should be to retain current Tranquility inventory management code until they can sort things out.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Caldari State
#550 - 2012-05-15 02:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Tiger's Spirit,

Compare, Windows Explorer
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/45014286.jpg/
and Old UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/oldui.jpg/

Total Commander
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/86023596.jpg/
and New UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/newuiu.jpg/

And seems you don't understand the meaning of "multi-". It means "many". That is why Total Commander is absolutely NOT multi-windowed. If devs add split-view option to the new UI, it will be exactly like Total Commander (without plugins). But even now it's much closer to TC than to WinExplorer.

p.s. I'd say, new UI is like TC with one half in tree mode.



Oh man, You are an idiot. The TC is dual panel system with same or other location the W exlorer is not.

Windows Explorer : http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=rq1cvunejlyx5xnjn29l.jpg
New Inventory system: http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=qg3ntf0s3n3svpuke6ra.jpg

Same like two twin.

But the TC is different : http://tcup.eu/tcup/screeny/003.png same when two different windows open in same time and the user can browsing copying deleting to same or other locations. Just such the old inventory system, with separated and different windows.



Just watch the video from Unified Inventory fails and go to hell with your idiotic try with opened four Explorer and etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHJ_gL3vzmM

This is the prove why crap the new inventory system. Fails and mistakes.

No, you. You use words that you don't understand, that's what I tried to say. And new system is not crap, it's just an unfinished work and just has to be tweaked properly.

I admit my mistake with win explorer screenshot (i just don't use it). But it doesn't mean that TC is multi-windowed, because it's one window with two locations open in it (as you finally managed to say now). If old UI is not like win explorer, anyway it is not like TC either, because in the case of TC you have to open the ONLY window, the only instance, it's SOLID; in old ui you just make your windows visually look like split view but they remain separate. Old UI functionally is like win explorer without tree view, several windows open, with additional feature like tabs, that's all.

Tippia's video is good, but there you can see that he uses half of his screen. Such usage of screen is much worse to me than one-window-view (in EVE). To me, EVE is not a file loot/stuff manager. And to many other capsuleers, as you can see reading this topic from the beginning.

I think that you who need open inventories more than clean screen for other things are smth like 5-10% of active players, so idea of cancelling new UI just for you is ridiculous. I admit that it needs tweaking and adding functionality, but without delaying its delivery to tranquility, in normal form of launching then patching.

p.s. from Tippia's video I see one more thing: it's the matter of tastes.
He wants to see some inventories constantly and I don't. And I don't even need to see 2 or more windows simultaneously while moving stuff, seeing the source is usually good enough. When started playing eve I, too, wanted to see everything on my screen all the time, but realized that it's inconvenient and is not even supposed to be convenient (i.e., usage of everything at the same time). There is main idea in eve that you always have to prioritize what you need. So I chose to properly arrange what I needed most - overview, corp chat, local chat, fleet window, drone bay, control panel, d-scan; and to open inventory in such way that it uses only 2-3 small windows for a very short period of time.
Seems you and Tippia, and some others, decided to give the inventory the higher priority. Suppose you are traders, else why would you do that. Not miners, not npc-killers and absolutely not pvp-ers.

p.p.s. New UI is not worse, it's just different.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

#551 - 2012-05-15 04:46:47 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Seems you and Tippia, and some others, decided to give the inventory the higher priority. Suppose you are traders, else why would you do that. Not miners, not npc-killers and absolutely not pvp-ers.
…except that the issues I come across show up most clearly when you're killing NPCs, when you're (group) mining and when you're PvP:ing, because that's when you're more likely to come across a larger number of different item locations and when being able to monitor one without it interfering with anything else becomes critical. I have no idea if it's needed (other than pure convenience) for trading, since it's slow enough to let you click back and forth in a tree view and you have no overview, no HUD, and/or “selected item” no toolbar that competes for attention.

Quote:
New UI is not worse, it's just different.
The new UI is lacking functionality compared to the old one. It is not just different — it's actually worse.

By the way…
Quote:
When started playing eve I, too, wanted to see everything on my screen all the time, but realized that it's inconvenient and is not even supposed to be convenient
…a UI that is “not supposed to be convenient“ fundamentally fails to be a good UI. The old UI lets you have this convenience without breaking down; the new one does not. Guess what this means for the quality of the two UI implementations…
Shadow Cartel
#552 - 2012-05-15 07:29:58 UTC
This new Inventory system is the worst thing I've seen. Took me 10 minutes to accomplish what used to take me 30 secs. I swear, you do this and I'm done. I hear Diablo III is supposed to be good. I love this game, Please don't ruin it.
Shadow Cartel
#553 - 2012-05-15 07:32:25 UTC
I am hoping for NO changes here. Lets leave this little debacle out of the next patch PLEASE!

cheers
Shadow Cartel
#554 - 2012-05-15 08:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Rammix wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Tiger's Spirit,

Compare, Windows Explorer
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/45014286.jpg/
and Old UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/oldui.jpg/

Total Commander
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/86023596.jpg/
and New UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/newuiu.jpg/

And seems you don't understand the meaning of "multi-". It means "many". That is why Total Commander is absolutely NOT multi-windowed. If devs add split-view option to the new UI, it will be exactly like Total Commander (without plugins). But even now it's much closer to TC than to WinExplorer.

p.s. I'd say, new UI is like TC with one half in tree mode.



Oh man, You are an idiot. The TC is dual panel system with same or other location the W exlorer is not.

Windows Explorer : http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=rq1cvunejlyx5xnjn29l.jpg
New Inventory system: http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=qg3ntf0s3n3svpuke6ra.jpg

Same like two twin.

But the TC is different : http://tcup.eu/tcup/screeny/003.png same when two different windows open in same time and the user can browsing copying deleting to same or other locations. Just such the old inventory system, with separated and different windows.



Just watch the video from Unified Inventory fails and go to hell with your idiotic try with opened four Explorer and etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHJ_gL3vzmM

This is the prove why crap the new inventory system. Fails and mistakes.

....You use words that you don't understand, that's what I tried to say....



Better if you dont do it, because you talking idiotic things again and again.
The new inventory system is crap, worsen than old one,hard to handling, have bad functionality. Merging ships and modules, remove hangarbay, no multipanel it's a mistake. Everyone see it, just you talking bullsh*t here like this: "The new inventory will come to TQ because it's good " You wrote this. LOL
Minmatar Republic
#555 - 2012-05-15 11:19:01 UTC
Rammix wrote:
...plenty of less bright words...

I try to avoid any personal attack here so I just make one hypothetical question:

Do you think that all the less bright people in this thread are dev alts trying to justify the fundamental flaws in their concept ?

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

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Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2012-05-15 11:19:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
a UI that is “not supposed to be convenient“ fundamentally fails to be a good UI. The old UI lets you have this convenience without breaking down; the new one does not. Guess what this means for the quality of the two UI implementations…

thank you for pointing that out Tippia. some people (and i surely hope this doesn't include CCP devs) seems to forgot that part.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave

Gallente Federation
#557 - 2012-05-15 11:28:47 UTC
I would like to see the new inv system, though I accept that it MUST be optional.
C C P Alliance
#558 - 2012-05-15 11:37:02 UTC
Hey folks.

I just wanted to restate what we said in the Dev blog for the Unified Inventory that we wanted to get feedback from those that use SiSi in order to address problems that would occur. We intended on following heavily up on the feedback, doing as much as possible before launch as well as doing even further iterations and fixes in the upcoming release. Team Game of Drones is committed to a new methodology of using the principals of User Centered Design, where the User Experience of our players drives our design decisions.

Not only did we collect all feedback from the Forums, personal posts, Twitter comments and other sources but we took the issues many of you like Grey Stormshadow, Tippia and other have been pointing out and created a User Testing plan which we facilitated last week. In the sessions the whole team observed the live feed and took notes on everything the participants did. We don't do User Tests because we don't believe you when you say there is a problem, we want to address it correctly and by seeing it in action with our own eyes, we can more easily find a solution to the problems you have found.

Once we had collected all the date from the tests we created stories and design updates which have either already been submitted to the next SiSi build, or we are actively working on or have been put into our backlog of work stories which we will address as priority stories before we start working on other features for next release.

I'm sorry if people that have given us feedback have felt we didn't listen in the past few days, I hope this post has re-instated that we actually listen and act accordingly and have simply been doing nothing else since the release of our blog. In the future, when we go through the feedback and create User Testing plans, we will make sure we reply to all the different discussion threads on the forums where we read the feedback, so that you all know that the feedback has been read, noted and addressed.

Thank you all for the feedback, you help us make better features and a special thanks to those that have gone above and beyond by bringing us very detailed and accurate constructive feedback, it does make a world of a difference for us.

CCP Arrow   |   Director of User Experience   |   EVE Online   |   @CCP_Arrow

#559 - 2012-05-15 11:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
CCP Arrow wrote:
Once we had collected all the date from the tests we created stories and design updates which have either already been submitted to the next SiSi build, or we are actively working on or have been put into our backlog of work stories which we will address as priority stories before we start working on other features for next release.
Very nice.
Is there any chance of us getting some kind of rough idea what's on that back-log — not necessarily the gritty details, but just the general problem you've spotted and that it's at least slated to receive some kind of solution? I just know that, personally, I can withstand annoyances a whole lot more if I know they're going to end (even if it's Soon™).
Minmatar Republic
#560 - 2012-05-15 11:45:38 UTC
...and what kind of version are we expecting to see in tranq next week or will this project be delayed?

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