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Attack frigate changes

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-06-18 15:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Hello folks,

Welcome to the part deux of frigate balancing. As mentioned in the latest ship balancing blog, we will here have a look at what we call "attack frigates", which are a set of four hulls dedicated at cheap interception and tackling. Less resilient than combat frigates (Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus, Rifter), they are however the more mobile and have better high/med-slot configuration (for utility and tackling respectively). They are the fastest tech1 frigates and supposed to introduce players to advanced tech2 interceptor gameplay.

The side-effect of such changes could in turn make the Tormentor less appealing than it currently is (we understand Amarr pilots currently use it as a tackling platform as the Punisher only has 2 medium slots). A Tormentor iteration thus is most likely and suggestions are welcome on how to do so.


Exact changes below (without skills):


EXECUTIONER:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: -10% to small energy turret capacitor need and +5% small energy turret damage per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG, 140 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 350
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 360 / 180 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 410 / 2.85 / 1090000 / 2.91s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 27.5km / 920 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Radar
  • Signature radius: 31
  • Cargo capacity: 115


CONDOR:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +10% to rocket, light missile velocity and +5% damage to rocket, light missile damage per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 2 L, 0 turrets, 3 launchers
  • Fittings: 40 PWG, 185 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 250 / 250
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 150 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 400 / 2.9 / 1100000 / 2.99s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 880 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Gravimetric
  • Signature radius: 33
  • Cargo capacity: 130


ATRON:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small hybrid turret damage and +10% to small hybrid turret fallof per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 42 PWG, 147 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300 / 350 / 400
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 / 165 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 420 / 2.8 / 1050000 / 2.75s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 900 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Magnetometric
  • Signature radius: 35
  • Cargo capacity: 145


SLASHER:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small projectile turret damage and +7.5% to small projectile turret tracking per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 2 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 35 PWG, 135 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 300 / 300
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 / 120 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 430 / 2.83 / 1075000 / 2.85s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 20km / 940 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 7 Ladar
  • Signature radius: 30
  • Cargo capacity: 120



That's all for now, constructive comments are welcome P.

27/06 UPDATE:
available here.
Federation Uprising
#2 - 2012-06-18 15:38:51 UTC
You need to swap the scan resolution of the Atron and the Slasher.
#3 - 2012-06-18 15:45:41 UTC
If you would only give the Rifter back some of the guts you ripped out of it....


..not a lot, just a little lower intestine so its not such a sphincetr cincher to fly now.
#4 - 2012-06-18 15:46:19 UTC
looks good on paper to me. would like to try them on SISI ;)

i was always wondering why ships using projectiles (which already have best tracking) get another tracking bonus on top of that.
thats like having a useable beam frigate with range bonus.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-06-18 15:48:13 UTC
maybe give the Slasher (and the Atron, to a lesser extent) a little more targeting range?

the utility hislot allows to run a short range ab/web/scram setup with a nos, but the boni do nudge the ships into a long range warp disruptor setup (i love how the design offers this choice). however, the limited lock range on the slasher and the atron encourage a signal amp or sensor booster for long range setups. just checking whether that is intended.
Federation Uprising
#6 - 2012-06-18 15:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
Or at a minimum the Executioner. Your symmetry is off.

Targeting Range : Scan Resolution

C: 32.5 / 880 1 4
E: 27.5 / 920 2 2
A: 22.5 / 900 3 3
S: 20 / 940 4 1

That would rank the ships by:

C: 1 4
E: 2 2
A: 3 3
S: 4 1

It should be:

C: 1 4
E: 2 3
A: 3 2
S: 4 1

Longest targeting range has lowest scan resolution. Best scan resolution has the shortest targeting range. One of the other needs to be flipped on both the Atron and the Executioner.
#7 - 2012-06-18 15:57:47 UTC
Changes from the original are in brackets:

EXECUTIONER:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: -10% to small energy turret capacitor need and +5% small energy turret damage per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost (new)
  • Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG (+20), 140 CPU (+40)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 (+15) / 400 (+95) / 350 (+76)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 360 (+173) / 180 s (+39.37) / 2 (+0.67)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 410 (+6) / 2.85 (+0.04) / 1090000 (-34000) / 2.91s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 27.5km (+7.5) / 920 (+220) / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Radar (+2)
  • Signature radius: 31 (-2)
  • Cargo capacity: 115 (-20)


CONDOR:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +10% to rocket, light missile velocity and +5% damage to rocket, light missile damage per level (new)
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost (new)
  • Slot layout: 4 H (+1), 4 M (+2), 2 L (+1), 0 turrets (-1), 3 launchers (+1)
  • Fittings: 40 PWG (+15), 185 CPU (+85)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 (+126) / 250 (+24) / 250 (+55)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+144) / 150 s (+32.81) / 2 (+0.67)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 400 (-4) / 2.9 (-0.28) / 1100000 (-85000) / 2.99s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km (+7.5) / 880 (+245) / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Gravimetric (+1)
  • Signature radius: 33 (-4)
  • Cargo capacity: 130 (-20)


ATRON:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small hybrid turret damage and +10% to small hybrid turret fallof per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost (new)
  • Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 42 PWG (+22), 147 CPU (+47)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300 (+65) / 350 (+76) / 400 (+150)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+144) / 165 s (-47.81) / 2 (+0.67)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 420 (+11) / 2.8 (+0.026) / 1050000 (-114000) / 2.75s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 (-5) / 0 (-5)
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 900 (+225) / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Magnetometric (+1)
  • Signature radius: 35 (-1)
  • Cargo capacity: 145 (-20)


SLASHER:
[list]
  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small projectile turret damage and +7.5% to small projectile turret tracking per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost (new)
  • Slot layout: 4 H (+1), 4 M (+2), 2 L (+1), 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers (-1)
  • Fittings: 35 PWG (+15), 135 CPU (+35)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 (+115) / 300 (+57) / 300 (+112)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 (+84) / 120 s (+2.81) / 2 (+0.67)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 430 (-11) / 2.83 / 1075000 (-75000) / 2.85s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 20km (+2.5) / 940 (+190) / 4
  • Sensor strength: 7 Ladar (+2)
  • Signature radius: 30
  • Cargo capacity: 120

  • Let me know if you see mistakes, and I'll fix them.
    Amarr Empire
    #8 - 2012-06-18 16:07:51 UTC
    I would recommend being a bit more flexible with the launcher/hard point allocation for these ships, especially since they have utility highs which would open up more variety between fits. This way, pilots can choose between going with a bit of additional DPS with an unbonused gun/launcher, or going with a nos/neut etc. Variety is good!



    The current Tormentor is kind of suffering from a master-of-none issue, and really doesn't fit any of the existing Amarr ship paradigms. If you work from a 10% optimal/level bonus you'll have a winner (basically a poor-mans slicer), which also would bring it in line with ships like the slicer, ret, zealot and apoc. In addition to the 10% optimal bonus, I think either 7.5 tracking, or 10% energy cap usage (even though I still hate this bonus) would be a good pairing.

    For the Tourmentor: The existing slot layout could be used. Drop the drone bay, and go with 3 gun/launcher hardpoints. Possibly drop the speed a bit since a 10% optimal + 4 low slots and 400 m/s base speed (385-390?) would make it a bit too good of a kiter. The PG could be lowered a bit and CPU increased in order to make it a bit easier for versatility (better balance between going with a tank, or speed/range).

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

    Team Amarrica
    #9 - 2012-06-18 16:09:49 UTC
    I sense a disturbance in the force - as if 8 interceptors at once cried out for a buff.
    Minmatar Republic
    #10 - 2012-06-18 16:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sparkus Volundar
    I'd like to second the point made about the base locking range being a little short.

    Max targeting skills (unlikely for many target users) and squad bonuses will only get the Slasher locking out to 27.5 km whereas a heated T2 point (low skill requirements) reaches 28.8 km. That seems a little harsh - especially when the pilot would normally prefer to start locking a target in advance to save time. There are modules to help this of course and that might be part of the balancing plan.

    The name “Attack Frigates” sound to me like they would be like T1 Assault Frigates rather than like T1 Interceptors. How about Tackler Frigates (to avoid “re-inventing the wheel”)? My only other idea was Graboid but then I like Tremors far too much. Hopefully you get the idea Big smile

    .

    The Mockers AO
    #11 - 2012-06-18 16:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
    "Strike Frigates" or something might work better and overall in the naming Scheme

    Combat Ships VS Strike Ships (or something like that). Attack and Combat are very close to being synonymous.


    Other than that ::

    The role bonus really caught me off guard!

    The changes look pretty decent for the T1 setups. They do seem to really look on par with the T2 interceptors- asking that they get a healthy boost when you get there.

    The extreme targeting range variance seems to be a bit imbalancing. I understand 5-7 km locking range difference, but 12.5 km from top to bottom? That's a 30% difference. That means 1 Sensor Booster in the mid would get a Slasher to a Condor. You're essentially forcing a slot to be used for a sensor booster.

    For the Slasher it seems like you're going for an Artillery platform with the tracking bonus (or really good at killing drones with the autocannons), but I find that at the upper end of 3,000m/s Artilleries aren't going to hit anything, pretty much no matter what! So, I wonder if a respectable falloff bonus would be preferred to get Autocannons (t2 barrage at least) to reach closer to 15+KM or so.

    I think it's a healthy change to these ships, and it really is taking me some time to accomodate the idea that these ships aren't going to suck anymore! It's hard to really draw a good balancing point with these frigates because they feel a lot better on paper than they have ever been before, and I think there's some great potential here.

    On the Condor, I think the Kinetic bonus would help remind Caldari pilots that they are meant to be kinetic DPSers, so I think it's interesting that you put a generic 5% damage bonus. Is this going to be a pattern of removing the kinetic bonus from caldari ship as you continue to rebalance?



    Lol

    Where I am.

    #12 - 2012-06-18 16:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
    Marcel Devereux wrote:
    Or at a minimum the Executioner. Your symmetry is off.

    Targeting Range : Scan Resolution

    C: 32.5 / 880 1 4
    E: 27.5 / 920 2 2
    A: 22.5 / 900 3 3
    S: 20 / 940 4 1

    That would rank the ships by:

    C: 1 4
    E: 2 2
    A: 3 3
    S: 4 1

    It should be:

    C: 1 4
    E: 2 3
    A: 3 2
    S: 4 1

    Longest targeting range has lowest sensor strength. Best sensor strength has the shortest targeting range.


    Targeting range and sensor strenght are not interconnected. Typically Caldari ships have the highest sensorstrenghts (because of :ECM:) and also the longest targetingrange (because of :missiles:). Targeting range supports weapon systems, not sensor strenght.
    #13 - 2012-06-18 16:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
    well for the tormentor there are two options that amarr frigs wont have after changes, which is a laser sniper or drone boat as it already has drones bring it in line with the new navitas stats.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Snuffed Out
    #14 - 2012-06-18 17:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
    The Coercer does laser sniping, and I think they wanted to make the Crucifier into a TD/drones thing

    What if the Tormentor had a bonus to energy neut activation cost? It'd be a support role fillable by newbies without excellent cap skills, but wouldn't be as powerful or longrange as Cruor or Sentinel.

    e: But thinking about it, that's not really 'long range offensive', is it? :( I don't understand how that can be done when desties are around, which are so close in training and use the same guns. I'm nub I guess :P
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2012-06-18 17:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Lynne
    Bloodpetal wrote:
    Is this going to be a pattern of removing the kinetic bonus from caldari ship as you continue to rebalance?

    I sure Hope so!

    Some points i'd like to raise:
    -Possibly give each of them a single launcher (Turret, for the Condor) Hardpoint. Gives some versatility in fitting, allowing for a choice between a launcher(Turret) for damage-oriented setups or a nos for fleet/Tackle-oriented setups.
    -4 Mids on the Slasher is questionable.
    -Atron's may work better with a Tracking bonus. For tackling, this helps against drones, for damage dealing, it helps larger-tier blasters track up close, especially at atron speeds. Also worth noting is that Range probably wont be much of an isssue given its base speed.
    ---Possible same issue with the Executioner. Pulses have bad tracking, not sure how this will fare vs. Drones for fleet work and damage dealing. Possibly replace Cap use bonus with tracking/range
    Edit: Condor would maybe work well with Exp Velocity Bonus instead or Range bonus, for reasons detailed below.
    -Regarding Tormentor: +1 Turret, Lose the damage bonus and replace with a range bonus. Possibly consider +1 Drone and replacing the Cap use bonus with a Drone Hitpoints (But NOT Damage) Bonus.

    Tracking is essential for such a flimsy class of ship when drones are considered. These ships would do well with the ability to deal with small numbers of drones while still focusing on tackle.
    As it stands rght now, Slasher will probably be the only one used in fleets, because of speed/mids/lock speed and tracking, with Condor/Atron/Exequtioner used for solo occasionally.

    Edit:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    That's all for now, constructive comments are welcome P.

    RAARRGH Y U NO GIEV AMAR MINING FRIG!

    [u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread

    Federation Uprising
    #16 - 2012-06-18 17:21:36 UTC
    LtCol Laurentius wrote:
    Marcel Devereux wrote:
    Or at a minimum the Executioner. Your symmetry is off.

    Targeting Range : Scan Resolution

    C: 32.5 / 880 1 4
    E: 27.5 / 920 2 2
    A: 22.5 / 900 3 3
    S: 20 / 940 4 1

    That would rank the ships by:

    C: 1 4
    E: 2 2
    A: 3 3
    S: 4 1

    It should be:

    C: 1 4
    E: 2 3
    A: 3 2
    S: 4 1

    Longest targeting range has lowest sensor strength. Best sensor strength has the shortest targeting range.


    Targeting range and sensor strenght are not interconnected. Typically Caldari ships have the highest sensorstrenghts (because of :ECM:) and also the longest targetingrange (because of :missiles:). Targeting range supports weapon systems, not sensor strenght.


    Typo. I meant scan resolution.
    Team Amarrica
    #17 - 2012-06-18 17:23:14 UTC
    You are taking very fast frigates that have 6 slots and upgrading them to 10 slots. Their fitting grid is also getting an upgrade. These ships go interceptor speeds. For the above reasons I feel that a role bonus would be too much as well as out of place for tech 1
    Minmatar Republic
    #18 - 2012-06-18 17:39:23 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    You are taking very fast frigates that have 6 slots and upgrading them to 10 slots. Their fitting grid is also getting an upgrade. These ships go interceptor speeds. For the above reasons I feel that a role bonus would be too much as well as out of place for tech 1

    i would argue in the opposite direction. the t1 interceptor base hulls should be usable for new pilots (or poor ones) as a tackler ship. the role bonus is essential for this, as is a high scan resolution. but the massive PG/CPU/Slot boost makes them viable combat vessels on top of their "i can hold that target, but you guys have to keel eet" role. i'm not sure how much oomph these ships need to fill a tackler role. being t1 frigates, "keel eet" could well be "keel eet QUIIICK before eet keels mee" and still make them useful ships.
    Amarr Empire
    #19 - 2012-06-18 17:43:35 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    well for the tormentor there are two options that amarr frigs wont have after changes, which is a laser sniper or drone boat as it already has drones bring it in line with the new navitas stats.


    I would say the Crucifier is a better candidate for a drone boat, essentially make it a T1 frig version of the sentinel, arbitrator, and curse. Basically let it keep the TD bonus and swap the cap usage bonus to a drone damage/hp bonus. Of course the Crucifier also needs some major love in the slot and fitting department before it's remotely viable.

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

    Amarr Empire
    #20 - 2012-06-18 17:51:53 UTC
    Varg Krugar wrote:
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    You are taking very fast frigates that have 6 slots and upgrading them to 10 slots. Their fitting grid is also getting an upgrade. These ships go interceptor speeds. For the above reasons I feel that a role bonus would be too much as well as out of place for tech 1

    i would argue in the opposite direction. the t1 interceptor base hulls should be usable for new pilots (or poor ones) as a tackler ship. the role bonus is essential for this, as is a high scan resolution. but the massive PG/CPU/Slot boost makes them viable combat vessels on top of their "i can hold that target, but you guys have to keel eet" role. i'm not sure how much oomph these ships need to fill a tackler role. being t1 frigates, "keel eet" could well be "keel eet QUIIICK before eet keels mee" and still make them useful ships.


    I agree. Even with the proposed changes, these ships aren't a replacement for an interceptor, they provide a poor-mans alternative to an interceptor. The T2 versions still have much more EHP, better damage, and in some cases a scram/disruptor range bonus. Plus they will be actually useful instead of crippled with all kinds of weird fitting/slot restrictions.

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

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