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Why Is Ice Mostly Bot Mined?

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Caldari State
#1 Posted: 2011.10.12 19:19  |  Edited by: Calipygian
Disclaimer: I am not trying to debate who uses bots or whether or not it's ok (of course it isn't). Also, this has nothing to do with the currently Goonswarm campaign. Well, the campaign made me think about it, but this post doesn't take a stand on it.

Given that:
It is frequently asserted that a lot of bots are used to mine ice ( I have no actual reason to doubt this).
Ice mining is numerically less profitable than ore mining.

So why do bots go for ice?
Do asteroids pose too much of a problem to bots? The ore gets depleted, so you often can't get a full cycle. And eventually the whole belt is gone and you have to move, possibly to another system.
Are that many people really so dense on economics that they think mining their own fuel makes more sense than buying it?
Or are there tons of ore bots that just aren't obvious? (this would require the previous one to be true too)


My guess is that no bot is good enough at handling the way asteroids depelete to keep the yield high enough to beat the reliable yield of ice that doesn't ever deplete.
#2 Posted: 2011.10.12 19:35  |  Edited by: VaMei
It's just my own suspicion with no basis in fact, but I would guess that a better part of the ice miners are actually dual box alts or semi-afk rather than bots. Ice is EASY to mine that way since you only need to check in evey 5-15mins depending on skills and fitting.

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.
Caldari State
#3 Posted: 2011.10.12 19:42
VaMei wrote:

Bots that are ice mining are playing the what I mine is free thing, since they'd do better to mine veld for sale & buy ice products than to mine ice.


But this is such common knowledge, what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly. If that was true, you could reduce ice botting with and education campaign.
#4 Posted: 2011.10.12 19:48
Calipygian wrote:
what kind of player needs such epic quantities of ice but doesn't have any consideration of opportunity cost (even if they don't know the term)? It's something I'd expect everyone involved in industry to suss out pretty quickly.


You might think that would be the case, but the market is loaded with examples of manufacturers that just don't get it.
#5 Posted: 2011.10.12 19:58
You're paying for the alt account anyway, so you can light cynos and scout. No point training the cyno alt further, so you trained an ice miner toon on another slot, and just sit it in highsec mining ice whenever you're online. Your alliance buys the ice off you, or you sell it on the market. Either way, profit. From an account that'd be sitting around doing nothing anyway. That you're paying for anyway.
Ice is better than ore because you can just sit there and check in every few minutes. Set a cycle going while you grab a drink, or take a shower. Log in before work, get a holdfull or three over breakfast.
****
Caldari State
#6 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:03
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
You're paying for the alt account anyway, so you can light cynos and scout. No point training the cyno alt further, so you trained an ice miner toon on another slot, and just sit it in highsec mining ice whenever you're online. Your alliance buys the ice off you, or you sell it on the market. Either way, profit. From an account that'd be sitting around doing nothing anyway. That you're paying for anyway.
Ice is better than ore because you can just sit there and check in every few minutes. Set a cycle going while you grab a drink, or take a shower. Log in before work, get a holdfull or three over breakfast.


That isn't botting. I can see ice mining if you can't devote the real time. It's something I do myself. That isn't the issue here. I want to know why people use automation to make less ISK mining ice than they could using the same automation elsewhere (ore).
#7 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:05
Ice has steady consumption unlike minerals which consumption is based on war . POS will always need ice.
The Mittani...not the hero Eve deserves, but the one we need.
-Prisoner 002929
Goonswarm Federation
#8 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:09
because ice mining requires a less intelligent bot as it's never got to move
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Caldari State
#9 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:17
Weaselior wrote:
because ice mining requires a less intelligent bot as it's never got to move


That was my guess. But I do hear stories about people bot mining ore. Is it just a null-sec thing where there is less mining competition and some more vaulable ores?
Goonswarm Federation
#10 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:21
ice botting also scales well: you can run 10 ice bots in the same system and it's never going to get full, while your veld bots may strip the system bare and go idle for a while

plus it may just attract botters who are bad at math
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
#11 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:38
its mostly AFK actually. Because you can get a half an hour fill time on a mack and an hour on a hulk.

There are some bots, and surprisingly, some at keyboard ice miners.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. 
Caldari State
#12 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:49
Weaselior wrote:
ice botting also scales well: you can run 10 ice bots in the same system and it's never going to get full, while your veld bots may strip the system bare and go idle for a while

plus it may just attract botters who are bad at math

That is a good point (the scaling). I had not considered that. And it's worse than just having to change systems. Having a big pile of bots in an ore belt even further lowers the efficiency. They would all be competing for the same rocks without some decent communication.
Clockwork Pineapple
#13 Posted: 2011.10.12 20:51
Mining is such a repetitive task that it is easily automated. Ice mining is especially so. Also bots have become sophisticated to the point where they can scan the field and switch off the miner when the roid is depleted in the middle of the cycle, target another, and start mining that one.

Ice is the easiest as the cycle time is long, and the roids never deplete.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
#14 Posted: 2011.10.12 23:08
I'm pretty sure it's because a whole fleet of Macks could mine on a single Ice chunk and never pop it before downtime.

Ice is always in demand.

And mining ice is the single most boring event in the entire game.

So... bots are making tons of profit for doing what no one else in their right mind wants to do.

*withholds making any sort of racist jokes*

=)
Gallente Federation
#15 Posted: 2011.10.13 00:10
Somewhat off-topic but relevant is that high-sec ice is terrible isk. Even thick blue ice, for example, only returns 350 units of oxygen isotopes per ice block (plus a handful of other fuel). Even selling at 500 isk per oxygen isotope (if we ignore the current oxygen isotope market for the moment) that's 175000 isk per thick blue ice block with perfect refine.

A well-skilled mack cycles in lets say, 5 minutes, producing 4 ice blocks. So in 1 hour of constant mining (doubtful, unless you have orca present or dodge can flippers otherwise you're making station runs to drop off your cargo, and you may need someone to tank the rats for you, depending) you'll make 8.4 million isk from the topes. Your p.o.v. might vary, but imo that's pretty terrible isk for an hours work.

That hour ofnon-stop ice-mining produces 16800 isotopes. A large control tower consumes 450 isotopes per hour, so thats a pos fueled for 37.3 hours for your hours work. So something like 20 hours of mining a month just for the isotopes to fuel a single large control tower, blech =P
#16 Posted: 2011.10.13 07:37
basicly it is too easy , the rocks never move never deplete and the belts are always in the same place , all the ingriedients needed to make a relative easy macro

Ice mining if you do it yourself solo is boring and slow, in a group however you can have a good time on vent or TS and you easy mine a months worth of isotope for a large tower in a few hours
A good solution would be to place ice in a grav belt similair as the grav sites you find in nullsec when the idustrial upgrade goes up
Each belt stays a few days and then dissapears to another position in the system and you WILL need to scan them out tho they should be relative easy to find

Will have little or no effect on the ice fuel market and will defeat the icemining bots atleast most of them
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
#17 Posted: 2011.10.13 08:18  |  Edited by: paloma1
pussnheels wrote:
basicly it is too easy , the rocks never move never deplete and the belts are always in the same place , all the ingriedients needed to make a relative easy macro

Ice mining if you do it yourself solo is boring and slow, in a group however you can have a good time on vent or TS and you easy mine a months worth of isotope for a large tower in a few hours
A good solution would be to place ice in a grav belt similair as the grav sites you find in nullsec when the idustrial upgrade goes up
Each belt stays a few days and then dissapears to another position in the system and you WILL need to scan them out tho they should be relative easy to find

Will have little or no effect on the ice fuel market and will defeat the icemining bots atleast most of them




Placeing ice in grav belt wouldn't prevent botting. Botter would just scan the system for new grav belt every time last one disapear, then put bot again. It would be like we have now. Only difference is having to scan every few days.

Ice mining is most boring thing you have in this game. Even in a group. Of course you have bots to mine ice. I do it with this character. But I'm not bot. I do it afk while doing sleeper sites with my main or watch TV or something.
Caldari State
#18 Posted: 2011.10.13 13:17
Calipygian wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
because ice mining requires a less intelligent bot as it's never got to move


That was my guess. But I do hear stories about people bot mining ore. Is it just a null-sec thing where there is less mining competition and some more vaulable ores?



Hardly anyone mines in 0.0, bots or otherwise despite the availability of high-end ores because there are more profitable ventures. The vast majority of both ice and low-ends are mined by bots in hisec. The gaggle of miners that pop up in threads are only a tiny percentage of the total mining force.

You see bots doing this because, as others have stated, it's generally a low/zero risk venture that's easily automated and scales well over virtually any number of accounts. The lack of any significant skill/complexity requirements also reduces the barrier to entry, as anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of programming could write a capable bot of their own in a short period of time.
#19 Posted: 2011.10.13 13:33
Two simple reasons why Bots like ice. First mining is boring. Secondly, Ice is always in the same place.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
#20 Posted: 2011.10.13 20:07  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Weaselior wrote:
ice botting also scales well: you can run 10 ice bots in the same system and it's never going to get full, while your veld bots may strip the system bare and go idle for a while

plus it may just attract botters who are bad at math


Assumptions.

Most high sec ice miners I've crossed are null sec/low sec alts doing some isk to sustain the pvp toon since ice mining doesn't require that much attention.

If you were really after bots then you should start by your own systems and encourage the report of those instead of black list any corp or char in your alliance suspected of repport.

Thankful for us humility doesn't pay taxes yet, well you wouldn't care any way, you'd be exempt Lol
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