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Issler, I'm Curious and Hope You'll Reply

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Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2012-10-06 23:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
In the past I questioned Issler Dainze on her stance pertaining to mining "improvements." Her response was dodgy at first, but she did come up with a few very nice pieces of propaganda before being elected to the CSM:

Issler Dainze wrote:
I'd even suggest this, if mining was working the way a lot of miners would like it, it would be a lot hard to bot it. It would be a dynamic activity where active real time participation would improve results dramatically.


Issler Dainze wrote:
The other part about mining is you quickly plateau. You can quickly train all the skills that will ever matter to you, get the best ships that help you mine and then then what? When is the last time something that changed the mining experience or provided a new skill to learn was put into Eve? And yet, this is an activity a huge segment of Eve spends their time doing.


The upcoming changes to aggression mechanics and the recent changes to Exhumers and Barges hardly seem consistent with these views. This is because the Mackinaw is pretty much the clear-cut plateau for mining in almost all situations due to its beefy EHP, its cavernous ore bay, and its astonishing yield. With a Mackinaw in today's Eve, miners may mine unmolested in 0.7 security space and higher without reasonable fear of risk.

How, exactly, does that make the process more engaging and less bot-friendly? If you agree with me that this is more bot friendly, what advice do you have for CCP about the direction of mining from here on?

Further, how do the changes favor a diversification of fits and ship selection, when one pinnacle ship clearly has more of everything miners want than either of the other two in its class? How is today's situation any better at all than the time when the Great Untanked Hulk was just as ubiquitous? If it isn't a better scenario than before, what would you suggest for a change to the new mining vessels?

[Edit]

How rude of me...

Thank you in advance for your time and attentive answer.

[/Edit]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#2 - 2012-10-07 00:46:04 UTC
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.

So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.

Issler
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2012-10-07 00:49:40 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.

So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.

Issler

I'm not sure you explained how the changes work against bots. Nor how they discourage plateauing.

You just said there are other things coming, that's not the same.

I'm looking for specifics about these changes. Ie, are they consistent with the above-mentioned quotes, and if not, are you against them philosophically?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#4 - 2012-10-07 02:09:01 UTC
I like my boring high ore hold volume mining.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2012-10-07 02:14:29 UTC
rodyas wrote:
I like my boring high ore hold tanky volume mining.


Fixed.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#6 - 2012-10-07 02:47:37 UTC
I don't tank it though. Why?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-10-07 08:15:59 UTC
rodyas wrote:
I don't tank it though. Why?

There's no need, CCP just rolled the buffer modules into the ship's basic statline for you.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-10-07 19:34:30 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.

So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.

Issler

I'm not sure you explained how the changes work against bots. Nor how they discourage plateauing.

You just said there are other things coming, that's not the same.

I'm looking for specifics about these changes. Ie, are they consistent with the above-mentioned quotes, and if not, are you against them philosophically?
You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get an answer out of Michele Boland. Here is the total extent of his/her work as a CSM7 rep:

Michele: CCP, do you intend to release more mining/industry changes and features in the future.
CCP: Yes.
Michele: My job, eet eez done!
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2012-10-07 21:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.

So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.

Issler

I'm not sure you explained how the changes work against bots. Nor how they discourage plateauing.

You just said there are other things coming, that's not the same.

I'm looking for specifics about these changes. Ie, are they consistent with the above-mentioned quotes, and if not, are you against them philosophically?
You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get an answer out of Michele Boland. Here is the total extent of his/her work as a CSM7 rep:

Michele: CCP, do you intend to release more mining/industry changes and features in the future.
CCP: Yes.
Michele: My job, eet eez done!

In fairness, there is a lot for her to answer for here. I can understand her trepidation to remark on how the "mining buffs" fit her self-ascribed vision of "what most miners actually want."

The changes we got seem to be changes in the wrong direction even from the quoted viewpoints expressed by CSM Dainze before the changes ever hit SiSi!
It's a bit of a pickle. Cool

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-10-08 11:28:53 UTC
Well, its hard for any CSM candidate to come out and say what most miners really want, since 'less risk, less effort, less interactivity, less decision making' isn't exactly a compelling campaign slogan.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Executive Outcomes
#11 - 2012-10-08 13:03:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Well, its hard for any CSM candidate to come out and say what most miners really want, since 'less risk, less effort, less interactivity, less decision making' isn't exactly a compelling campaign slogan.



Most Americans would vote for it Cool

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2012-10-08 17:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Well, its hard for any CSM candidate to come out and say what most miners really want, since 'less risk, less effort, less interactivity, less decision making' isn't exactly a compelling campaign slogan.

Fortunately she was willing to comment on miners' "real" desires for mining prior to the CSM election out of blind self-interest.

Now that the comment is dredged back up we have a classic case of a politician shirking pre-election claims and exchanging their apparent validity with empty propaganda and silence.

That is not good leadership.

That is pandering, deaf and mute, to the masses.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#13 - 2012-10-08 17:20:55 UTC
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2012-10-08 17:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler

OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing?

Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects?

I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.

It's not that much to ask from an elected representative.

And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling?

Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?

[Edit]

I was unaware CSM constituency and responsibilities were broken down specifically by profession. Your last paragraph implies that you're only willing to dialogue with miners. That does not seem like a particularly strong position.

Most of your constituency is probably AFK or botting if that's the case, though. Not many questions or discussions there, I'd imagine.

[/Edit]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#15 - 2012-10-08 17:35:51 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler

OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing?

Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects?

I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.

It's not that much to ask from an elected representative.

And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling?

Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?


The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well.

As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all.

Issler
#16 - 2012-10-08 17:41:35 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.

So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.

Issler

I'm not sure you explained how the changes work against bots. Nor how they discourage plateauing.

You just said there are other things coming, that's not the same.

I'm looking for specifics about these changes. Ie, are they consistent with the above-mentioned quotes, and if not, are you against them philosophically?
You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get an answer out of Michele Boland. Here is the total extent of his/her work as a CSM7 rep:

Michele: CCP, do you intend to release more mining/industry changes and features in the future.
CCP: Yes.
Michele: My job, eet eez done!

In fairness, there is a lot for her to answer for here. I can understand her trepidation to remark on how the "mining buffs" fit her self-ascribed vision of "what most miners actually want."

The changes we got seem to be changes in the wrong direction even from the quoted viewpoints expressed by CSM Dainze before the changes ever hit SiSi!
It's a bit of a pickle. Cool


The barge changes are absolutely consistent with what I had hoped for miners in Eve. However they are only one part of a lot of things needed. For example the idea of the Skiff being great for ninja mining in more dangerous and but more profitable locations is fantastic. unfortunately at the moment those places are not in Eve. There is a lot of discussion about how to make low sec relevant again and if part of that means making mining there interesting we now have a great barge for the challenge.

Issler
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#17 - 2012-10-08 17:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler

OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing?

Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects?

I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.

It's not that much to ask from an elected representative.

And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling?

Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?


The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well.

As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all.

Issler

Not. One. Iota. Of. Substance.

Compound rocks do not have anything to do with the questions. Actively controlled lasers have nothing to do with the questions. Ring mining has nothing to do with the specific questions that were asked.

Hoever, in the interest of manners and good taste, I wish to thank you very much for confirming what many already undoubtedly suspected: You are unable to give a straight answer pertaining to any issues potentially introduced by an apparent "buff" to mining. One, I might add, which has caused ice prices to deflate past the pricing indexes achieved through Goonswarm's ice interdiction and the subsequent Evergeddon.

Obviously this thread was a waste of time, though.

It's ok you can go back to AFK mining now.

[edit]
Why would miners use the Skiff for ninja mining, an activity which encourages the rapid uptake of resources and the timely exit of the miner before detection? The Skiff has the lowest yield of all the barges, making it the most likely to be detected.

Hey look we're dialoguing!

Would you mind directly addressing the questions now, though, please?
[/edit]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#18 - 2012-10-08 18:07:24 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler

OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing?

Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects?

I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.

It's not that much to ask from an elected representative.

And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling?

Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?


The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well.

As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all.

Issler

Not. One. Iota. Of. Substance.

Compound rocks do not have anything to do with the questions. Actively controlled lasers have nothing to do with the questions. Ring mining has nothing to do with the specific questions that were asked.

Hoever, in the interest of manners and good taste, I wish to thank you very much for confirming what many already undoubtedly suspected: You are unable to give a straight answer pertaining to any issues potentially introduced by an apparent "buff" to mining. One, I might add, which has caused ice prices to deflate past the pricing indexes achieved through Goonswarm's ice interdiction and the subsequent Evergeddon.

Obviously this thread was a waste of time, though.

It's ok you can go back to AFK mining now.

[edit]
Why would miners use the Skiff for ninja mining, an activity which encourages the rapid uptake of resources and the timely exit of the miner before detection? The Skiff has the lowest yield of all the barges, making it the most likely to be detected.

Hey look we're dialoguing!

Would you mind directly addressing the questions now, though, please?
[/edit]


Depending on how compound rocks are implemented they might make botting harder, they would also make mining potentially real time interactive, very consistent with what I said I hoped for. This might also end up adding some new skills (I would expect ring mining to as well). So this is exactly what I said I hoped for.

You need to get over the fact that the barge changes were NOT supposed to address the items you cite that I wanted to see changed in mining. I certainly didn't run based on seeing some change to the barges and that is it. Like I said, I am not seeing miners complain about the barges.

As for the most interesting changes to mining, we'll have to wait and see.

As for ice prices, markets work, if miners aren't happy with the prices they have the freedom to do something else with their time.

Issler
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2012-10-08 18:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.

The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.

So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.

Issler

OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing?

Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects?

I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.

It's not that much to ask from an elected representative.

And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling?

Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?


The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well.

As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all.

Issler

Not. One. Iota. Of. Substance.

Compound rocks do not have anything to do with the questions. Actively controlled lasers have nothing to do with the questions. Ring mining has nothing to do with the specific questions that were asked.

Hoever, in the interest of manners and good taste, I wish to thank you very much for confirming what many already undoubtedly suspected: You are unable to give a straight answer pertaining to any issues potentially introduced by an apparent "buff" to mining. One, I might add, which has caused ice prices to deflate past the pricing indexes achieved through Goonswarm's ice interdiction and the subsequent Evergeddon.

Obviously this thread was a waste of time, though.

It's ok you can go back to AFK mining now.

[edit]
Why would miners use the Skiff for ninja mining, an activity which encourages the rapid uptake of resources and the timely exit of the miner before detection? The Skiff has the lowest yield of all the barges, making it the most likely to be detected.

Hey look we're dialoguing!

Would you mind directly addressing the questions now, though, please?
[/edit]


Depending on how compound rocks are implemented they might make botting harder, they would also make mining potentially real time interactive, very consistent with what I said I hoped for. This might also end up adding some new skills (I would expect ring mining to as well). So this is exactly what I said I hoped for.

You need to get over the fact that the barge changes were NOT supposed to address the items you cite that I wanted to see changed in mining. I certainly didn't run based on seeing some change to the barges and that is it. Like I said, I am not seeing miners complain about the barges.

As for the most interesting changes to mining, we'll have to wait and see.

As for ice prices, markets work, if miners aren't happy with the prices they have the freedom to do something else with their time.

Issler

You continue to evade the original questions. How do the barge changes address plateauing, a goal specifically stated by CCP in their re-design? Further, do you find the new exhumer experience more engaging and interactive than the old exhumers? If not, what advice do you have for CCP about future directions? Most importantly, did the changes make mining harder to bot?

You keep saying what's coming and what's consistent, but it looks like there's a lot of inconsistencies here and I'd think you'd have an opinion about that. Being that, you know, you claim to be one of the high-sec CSMs and also seem closest to the issues of mining.

We do agree the market will work itself out, though. We probably disagree on where that equilibrium will be found (I say material values from high-sec will approach zero over a long enough time) but hey, at least there's that. We agree on something, anyway.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

#20 - 2012-10-08 18:37:39 UTC

Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.

Issler
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