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High-sec miner bumping and "griefing" definition

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#21 Posted: 2012.11.23 10:35
Your problem is that, if you take away all the :words:, you're left with something like "CCP Falcon said it was fine, but I don't like that, so can we get the CEO's opinion on the matter?"

That's a pretty silly argument. We already have CCP's very clearly stated opinion on the matter;

CCP Falcon wrote:
  • Bumping is not considered harassment.
  • Bumping is not considered griefing.
  • Bumping is not against the rules.

And no, it's not a 'straw man' argument.
Agony Empire
#22 Posted: 2012.11.23 11:12
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Your problem is that, if you take away all the :words:, you're left with something like "CCP Falcon said it was fine, but I don't like that, so can we get the CEO's opinion on the matter?"

That's a pretty silly argument. We already have CCP's very clearly stated opinion on the matter;

CCP Falcon wrote:
  • Bumping is not considered harassment.
  • Bumping is not considered griefing.
  • Bumping is not against the rules.

And no, it's not a 'straw man' argument.


To be concise:

From the above statement, CCP Falcon has clearly stated that bumping is acceptable.

Currently, bumping is used to setup freighters for highsec ganks.
Currently, bumping is used to extort miners and inhibit bots.
Currently, bumping is used to knock ships away from gates and stations so you can gank them.

As stated before, the gist of your thread is:
You don't like how CCP Falcon's statement is being applied; You believe the situation, where N.O. can bump miners with impunity and exploit them by using this mechanic is inappropriate; and You want to escalate the current ruling, and hope to gain CSM support to do so.

1.) Extortion and Scamming have long been a part of EvE, and CCP has a history of allowing "creative use" of in-game mechanics to steal, cheat, extort, scam, and commit socially taboo activities. CCP purposely allows these acts, and actually uses such nefarious activities to promote EvE.

2.) If you want a "higher level" GM to respond, file a petition, then escalate it. Very rarely do we get such attention in assembly hall threads.

3.) Feel free to ask for all the support from the community to enhance your ability to fight back..... CCP won't make bumping illegal, but if it becomes abused to the point of seriously inhibiting game play, they will address it (example: The Exhumer buffs). The truth is, if it's only a small group of people, inhibiting a few systems, CCP won't give a ****...

4.) This is an MMO, where 3rd parties have the ability to adversely influence your game play. Not only do you accept that when you play eve, you are expected to deal with it using in game mechanics. Current ways to cope:

Pay off your bumpers.
Move to a different system.
Position your ship to be very difficult to bump.
Suicide gank / wardec the bumpers.

If these aren't good enough, then post a reason why you can't do any of the above, and ask / suggest tools / mechanics to help you fight back. Make sure your suggestions are actually addressing the core issues
Fidelas Constans
#23 Posted: 2012.11.25 10:54
The OP is free to hire mercs or wardec any bumper, most of us are in non NPC corps.

Of course if the OP and other miners are convinced that what we do is dubious with reference to the EULA, and someone at CCP in a moment of madness supports them, we could always switch to suicide ganking miners on a full time basis, that is an explicitly allowed activity with many years of CCP support and considerably more expensive for the miner, not to mention considerably more profitable than bumping because after 9 years of dying many miners still refuse to fit a tank at the expense of yield.

As for mining vessels being non-combat, this person would like to disagree, admittedly the pilot had flagged targets to attack, but it does show that mining barges are indeed combat effective.
The fact that I am not a gazillionaire Gallente aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle.
CODE.
#24 Posted: 2012.11.25 13:05
"The point of my proposition is to gain CSM endorsement so that the matter can be brought to executive level attention at CCP. This is significantly different than a CCP developer making a remark that is interpreted by some as "it's perfectly fine"; this situation is different that bumping used in combat-oriented situations. In effect my proposal is to go above the heads of the devs and go straight to the executive level."

All I know is that you are attempting to circumvent the word of the great Falcon, who was speaking on behalf of the judgement of the entire GM Team, by going above their heads to appeal to their boss with a "think carefully, you'll lose money" scare-tactic, and if I was any of these people I would be quite annoyed.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com to learn more.
Minmatar Republic
#25 Posted: 2012.11.25 16:24
I think all the new order agents should be in one player corp for easy wardecking. As long as all miners will be in one player corp for the exact same reason. Make it so ccp.
#26 Posted: 2012.11.26 07:23
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too! CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions. This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows. if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.
#27 Posted: 2012.11.26 10:17  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Emperor MTB wrote:
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too! CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions. This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows. if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.


CCP will not fight your battles for you or hold your hand while you do things. You're free to retaliate however you like, so why not? War dec them, or suicide gank them, whatever suits you.
hreatening to go back to wow is hilarious. I don't think CCP would miss you.

Edit: Rule 6 - Personal attacks are prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
#28 Posted: 2012.11.26 14:23  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Emperor MTB wrote:
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too! CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions. This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows. if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.

Edit Rule 6 - Personal attacks are prohibited.
Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
#29 Posted: 2012.11.26 14:28  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Emperor MTB wrote:
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too! CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions. This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows. if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.


Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
Never go full Ripard
#30 Posted: 2012.11.26 15:00
Oh I didn't realise Emperor was one of the people who were ganked the other day.

I hope you learned your lesson, Emperor.
#31 Posted: 2012.11.26 19:21  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
"The existing definition of "bumping", per official EVE Wiki, only discusses bumping as a methodology used as a combat tactic. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: you're completely right, mining barges are not immune from combat. But that's a straw man argument of sorts for two reasons: 1) nobody I've ever seen treats a mining barge as a combat ship -- and that isn't what the miners in these systems are doing, and 2) (more importantly) "combat miners" are not the demographic NO is focused on. NO is focused on miners who sit in mining belts mining quietly -- no act of aggression (socially or technically) are being solicited by the majority of the miners being bumped (and if they do get aggressive, it's a result of the unsolicited bumping)."

Because noone ever fits combat/scout drones to their exhumers. Oh, and even though I forget the corp's name, there's a youtube floating around where someone in an incursion fleet, used an exhumer. Food for thought.

You do however, make an interesting point. I'll quote the line I'm speaking of- NO is focused on miners who sit in mining belts mining quietly -- no act of aggression (socially or technically) are being solicited by the majority of the miners being bumped (and if they do get aggressive, it's a result of the unsolicited bumping).

Funny thing, is if you have ZERO aggressors... nothing happens. NO doesn't have to act solely in retaliation. You didn't pay. End of story. If you have a permit, you are given 365 days of free bump free mining unless you of course forfeit it by your own actions.

Since you like to quote and pull from minerbumping.com, I'm suprised you didn't touch on the point that miners, who aren't afk, have for the most part mouthed off expletives and inappropriate language. Because miners quite often are socially aggressive. When they aren't afk.

We can call this "talking **** before a fight" if you like. But as any toddler knows, just because you didn't throw the first punch doesn't mean you're right.

In the end, you can't appeal to CCP to fix something they consider working as intended, since you DO in FACT have the tools to cope with the problem. You just choose not to. Plenty of reasons listed here that I don't need to repeat.

You aren't forced to mine. You also aren't forced to be in the same system as anyone else. Also if you notice, non exhumer miners don't ever seem to get bumped. I guess your demographic is getting smaller and smaller.
This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation.
Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
#32 Posted: 2012.11.26 22:16  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
Summary of EvEs last four expansions:
http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

Disband.
#33 Posted: 2012.11.26 23:42  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Emperor MTB wrote:
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too!


Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

Emperor MTB wrote:
CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions.


CCP do put limits in place. They also provide players with tools to deal with us, but you seem unwilling or unable to use them.

Emperor MTB wrote:
This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows.


Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

Emperor MTB wrote:
if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.


Edit: - Rule 24 - Off topic posting prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Minmatar Republic
#34 Posted: 2012.11.27 00:15
Emperor MTB wrote:
Now they are not just bumping but suicide Ganking too! CCP Shoud put an and our at least some limits in NO actions. This james ( something) can't continue thinking that here he can do what he what's and has no punishiment to him and his follows. if this keep going on i will abandon eve and will be back to WOW our some other game that has some limits for abuses like this.

Hello, I am replying to you just to tell you I liked your post! I wish there were more good posts like these on the forums!

Oh well, time to go. Keep on posting Emperor MTB!
Gallente Federation
#35 Posted: 2012.11.27 11:41
What about the constant harassment I've suffered? No bumping but plenty of everything else ranging from death threats from readers of your blog and James attempting to force me to play how he wants.

He's giving me chronic depression on a game I. until a month ago, enjoyed despite the gankers.

Now he's making me concider suicide. Is making enemies of the New order Kill themselves a mark of high standings? WELL?
#36 Posted: 2012.11.27 12:32  |  Edited by: M Lamia
Capt Lynch wrote:
What about the constant harassment I've suffered? No bumping but plenty of everything else ranging from death threats from readers of your blog and James attempting to force me to play how he wants.

He's giving me chronic depression on a game I. until a month ago, enjoyed despite the gankers.

Now he's making me concider suicide. Is making enemies of the New order Kill themselves a mark of high standings? WELL?


From what I have witnessed, James has displayed super-human levels of patience and understanding with you, despite your violations of the Code and actions against the New Order. Regardless, "attempting to force" players to do something against their will is perfectly acceptable within EVE, and James is merely trying to make you into a better, happier miner.

The death threats from other players are of course A Bad Thing™, and I don't condone it personally, but you have to admit you tend to antagonise members of the New Order.
Gallente Federation
#37 Posted: 2012.11.27 12:34  |  Edited by: Capt Lynch
M Lamia wrote:
Capt Lynch wrote:
What about the constant harassment I've suffered? No bumping but plenty of everything else ranging from death threats from readers of your blog and James attempting to force me to play how he wants.

He's giving me chronic depression on a game I. until a month ago, enjoyed despite the gankers.

Now he's making me concider suicide. Is making enemies of the New order Kill themselves a mark of high standings? WELL?


From what I have witnessed, James has displayed super-human levels of patience and understanding with you. "[A]ttempting to force" players to do something against their will is perfectly acceptable within EVE, and in any case James is merely trying to make you into a better, happier miner.

The death threats from other players are of course A Bad Thing™, and I don't condone it personally, but you have to admit you tend to antagonise members of the New Order.


How? By asking them to leave me in peace? Or do you agree with Wookie Sith Ottig that me concidering suicide is 'awesome'?

AND FOR THE 1000TH ******* TIME...I...AM NOT A GODDAMNED MINER!!!!
#38 Posted: 2012.11.27 12:43
Capt Lynch wrote:
How? By asking them to leave me in peace?


Please don't be dishonest, Capt. You've went far beyond simply asking to be left in peace. Fabricated stories, contacting GMs/Devs, etc. You've done a lot of bad. I don't think you're beyond saving though.

Capt Lynch wrote:
Or do you agree with Wookie Sith Ottig that me concidering suicide is 'awesome'?


I never said or implied anything of the sort. This kind of attitude is why so many hate you.

Capt Lynch wrote:
AND FOR THE 1000TH ******* TIME...I...AM NOT A GODDAMNED MINER!!!!


If the tears fit...
Gallente Federation
#39 Posted: 2012.11.27 12:51
M Lamia wrote:
Capt Lynch wrote:
How? By asking them to leave me in peace?


Please don't be dishonest, Capt. You've went far beyond simply asking to be left in peace. Fabricated stories, contacting GMs/Devs, etc. You've done a lot of bad. I don't think you're beyond saving though.

Capt Lynch wrote:
Or do you agree with Wookie Sith Ottig that me concidering suicide is 'awesome'?


I never said or implied anything of the sort. This kind of attitude is why so many hate you.

Capt Lynch wrote:
AND FOR THE 1000TH ******* TIME...I...AM NOT A GODDAMNED MINER!!!!


If the tears fit...


And you keep bringing up things that happened a montyh ago and were settled a fortnight ago to make attempts to make me kill myself seem justified.

If you agree that someone should be driven to suicide, you are as bad as the ones doing the tormenting.
#40 Posted: 2012.11.27 13:13
Well this escalated quickly What?
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