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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-03-28 12:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Hiyo!

My first project here is touching up the set of attack battlecruisers. This class was in a fairly oppressive state following their creation, but the constant upgrades to frigs and cruisers has brought them back in line somewhat. Our goal here is to make a little more room for both battleships and cruisers at both large and small scales. We're doing this through tweaks to scan resolution and signature radius changes for all four, agility tweaks for Naga and Oracle, and mass increase for Talos and Tornado. Hopefully the end result is that they are slightly more vulnerable to probing, bombing, and being caught by tackle than they were.

Note: we are aware that these ships will be getting hit twice. Once from these changes, and once from the TE change. We think they will still be a very strong option in many environments, even if both changes going through as proposed, but we are all ears to discussion.

ORACLE:
Amarr Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: -10% to large laser cap use and +5% to large laser damage
Slot layout: 8H, 3M, 6L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 1375 PWG, 345 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1575 / 2160 / 1980
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 3500 / 875s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / .495 (+.02) / 14760000 / 10.1s (+.4s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 220 (-20) / 6
Sensor strength: 18 Radar
Signature radius: 210 (+30)

NAGA:
Caldari Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large hybrid turret damage and +10% to large hybrid turret optimal range
Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 3L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 875 PWG, 425 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2160 / 1575 / 1755
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 2900 / 725s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195 / .525 (+.04) / 14760000 / 10.9s (+.8s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 200 (-20) / 8
Sensor strength: 21 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 215 (+25)

TALOS:
Gallente Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large hybrid turret damage and +7.5% to large hybrid turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 5L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG, 360 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750 / 1890 / 2160
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 3100 / 775s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220 / .45 / 15552000 (+1152000) / 9.7s (+.7s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 210 (-20) / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 220 (+20)

TORNADO:
Minmatar Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large projectile turret rate of fire and +5% to large projectile turret falloff
Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 4L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 1000 PWG, 342 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1890 / 1800 / 1800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 2700 / 675s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225 / .475 / 15228000 (+1128000) / 10s (+.7s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 230 (-20) / 6
Sensor strength: 17 Ladar
Signature radius: 195 (+25)

@ccp_rise

Caldari State
#2 - 2013-03-28 12:57:14 UTC
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

C C P Alliance
#3 - 2013-03-28 12:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
I approve of this product and/or service.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

#4 - 2013-03-28 13:00:31 UTC
Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

#5 - 2013-03-28 13:01:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I approve of this product and/or service.

I though you went on holiday.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Out of Sight.
#6 - 2013-03-28 13:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships, if that was indeed your idea.

That said, it's still better to keep an eye on things instead of leaving them broken for years, so props for trying.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

#7 - 2013-03-28 13:03:44 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.


Removing a turret slot would probably be good idea since attack bcs get serious over DPS to anything else that you could fly. This would nerf the damage still giving bs level damage and good sniping ability, I also like the idea of utility high so just leave the 8 high slot?
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-03-28 13:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Castellan Garran Crowe
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.


Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever.

Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard.


Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is

EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!
C C P Alliance
#9 - 2013-03-28 13:05:00 UTC
Quote:
Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships


Won't have much effect on BS vs ABC at a small scale (although any decrease in mobility will help some), but it should have more an effect at a large scale where things like align time and sig radius (probe time) make ABC very very strong.

@ccp_rise

#10 - 2013-03-28 13:05:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones.


kind of agree, gives talos too much advantage over other attack bcs
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2013-03-28 13:06:15 UTC
Quote:
they are slow and squishy enough as it is


Squishy, yes. Slow, no. As I said in the post, cruisers and frigs both put a lot of pressure on them, but they are still substantially faster than anything that rivals their damage projection.

@ccp_rise

Ivy League
#12 - 2013-03-28 13:06:55 UTC
Sounds reasonable - expected worse. I still like my almost-instant-lock Tornado.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.

#13 - 2013-03-28 13:07:45 UTC
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.


Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever.

Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard.


Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is

EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!


Don't forget that TEs will get serious balancing. This will affect Tornado. Yes alpha remains but you will get problems getting the same falloff and even alpha to long range.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-03-28 13:09:41 UTC
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.


Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever.

Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard.


Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is

EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!


lol this is an alt

although flying a falcon it can be popped in a few hits by a nado arty fit
- just switch some alpha for ROF its seems odd that AC's are so ROF based but arties are opposite
-missiles and lasers should really be more alpha based than projectiles and rails.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

#15 - 2013-03-28 13:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
It's hard to evaluate the precise impact of mass increases without having a modified fitting tool to hand, but at first glance these seem to be an extremely minor set of changes that won't have any noticeable effect on the current state of the metagame.

Also, I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about probe time, since anything on grid in a fight will be probed in a single cycle irrespective of its sig radius...
#16 - 2013-03-28 13:11:53 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.

The whole point of introducing the tier 3 was to introduce a glass cannon. It is not odd that a Moa can out-tank a Naga, it's the way things should be.
#17 - 2013-03-28 13:12:27 UTC
I like the approach of balancing in smaller steps.
These more subtle changes will hardly break the concept of any of those ships, nevertheless they will move the more towards a better balance.

Well, it means more work for the balancing team, but since you are two now...
Out of Sight.
#18 - 2013-03-28 13:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships


Won't have much effect on BS vs ABC at a small scale (although any decrease in mobility will help some), but it should have more an effect at a large scale where things like align time and sig radius (probe time) make ABC very very strong.

Agreed, I'm almost always speaking from small and medium-scale perspective and I won't see any reason to avoid bringing attack battlecruisers to a roam cause of these changes alone.

Just make sure to re-iterate the whole attack BC vs battleship relationship after addressing the battleship class. Since any vessels sharing the same weaponry are almost bound to interfere each other.

I'm somewhat surprised that you're leaving Talos' drones intact, though.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-03-28 13:14:47 UTC
P sensible changes. Nice to see that the nerf isn't too strong or anything. I think the Naga's new align time might be slightly too big, but I'd need to play around with it a little once released to get an actual real world feel.
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2013-03-28 13:15:16 UTC
@CCP Rise, I'm curious to see if you feel there is any need to bring the power levels on these down at all to make the other BC's more ....whats the word i'm looking for? Used?

Used doesn't feel right but its kind of in the spirit of what I'm looking for, as right now theres no real reason to use any other BC over the Talos except for not being trained enough to use its guns.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

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