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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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#601 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:12
I agree with much of the sentiment expressed so far. Hyperion will remain as it is now - utterly terrible.
Domi changes I kind of like.
Mega - No. Just No. I'd rather lose a high from it to gain a mid than lose a valuable low. Losing a low slot is such a massive nerf to a gallente ship it's crazy. You lose out on either tank, or gank in the forms both of drone and gun DPS. My ratting mega will end up reprocessed if the changes happen as is. Blaster boats serve a tiny role in either pve or pvp, since their abysmal range means you will only ever be in range on a gate camp. Almost all the major ratting fits use rails. For a ship with cap sucking guns like hybrids, you need FAR more mids for a shield tank to be viable, because you need several of those mids for cap rechargers.

122 m/s and 16 sec align time is NOT FAST. It may be a little faster than many battleships. but it's still not on the same continent as fast, let alone the same street.
The Mega has never felt like a hyperion, because the hyperion is TERRIBLE. Active tanked armour is rarely seen outside PvE for good reasons. Plus the Hype has never had the slots to make best use of either of the bonuses.
The ancil armour repper is a start, but in reality, what the Hyperion really needs is a complete redefinition of its' role amd bonuses. Dump the rep bonus, give it an optimal range boost instead, and instantly you have a better blaster boat, or a viable rail ship.
Inappropriate signature added.  CCP Notarealdev.
Gallente Federation
#602 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:19
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.

I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").
Minmatar Republic
#603 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:23
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.

I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").



It's not quite that simple... The complaints arise from the overall effect they will have on the niche rolls of each ship. Despite what the baddies have said, the Hyperion does not work as a dual rep ship w/o the usage of two cap boosters which is why the complaints about the loss of a mid are so prevelant. At the same time the loss of a low on the mega (even with the increase dps from a Rof bonus) combined with the loss of a heavy drone has a negative impact on the dps capability of a plated Megathron.

Oversimplifying the complaints into (fear of change) is honestly a slight against the people who have explained the reason behind their negative feedback. I'd suggest opening your eyes and reading into the responses next time.
Shadow Cartel
#604 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:26
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.

I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").



Generally Mid slots >>>> Other slots.


There are exceptions though.
BYDI recruitment closed-ish
Gatekeepers Universe
#605 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:27  |  Edited by: Rysis Vyvorant
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.

I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").


You have no clue what you are talking about. The Hyperion needs the extra mid to be able to tackle due to the lack of tracking. On top of that active armour is cap hungry. What you currently have is a ship that is pointless.

I will not even go into the Megathron as people with a lot more experience than you have pointed out how horrible the new slot layout is. CCP have not addressed any of the issues which why the Mega is not widely used.

The Dominix bonuses are just meh. The only way they could work is if it got a drone control range bonus on top of it. What is the point of a sniper drone boat that does okish damage? If you drop the hybrid damage bonus let the Domi make up for the loss of dps by adding extra turrets and not just cramming the high slots with drone link augmentors.

Right now the drone tracking bonus does not add any real dps to the ship as the mid slots have nothing to enchance damage any further (before you used omni's) but those are not really needed anymore, or not the 3 that I use at the moment. What do I replace them with?
Goonswarm Federation
#606 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:27
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Considering the comments, low slots are exactly as valuable as mid slots : Megathron cannot lose its low slot, it's invaluable ; Hyperion cannot lose its mid slot, it's invaluable.

I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed. The only thing which would please them is a straight addition of something to make their beloved ship OP (read "have more than the others").


In the case of the mega, we can lose a high slot for that mid.
C C P Alliance
#607 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:29
Hi again Gallente friends!

We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Thanks again for the input!
@ccp_rise
#608 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:29  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I tend to analyze this as fear of change : mega pilots don't want their mega changed, and hyperion pilots don't want their hyperion changed.

People use the term "fear of change" as if it's meant to be some terrible character flaw. No, it isn't - sometimes the fear of certain changes is perfectly justified, especially if they're bad changes, and people have spent the last 30-ish pages explaining precisely why these are bad changes.

Yeah, we're afraid of CCP making these changes. They'll give us even less reason to use Gallente battleships.
#609 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:29  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Askulf Joringer wrote:
As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******.

Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix Roll
The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

Askulf Joringer wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The Hyperion has all of those things, and with 5 mids you can triple rep (LAR/LAR/LAAR) which results in a bigger active tank AND more hp & dps than a Mael/Rokh.


Stop using eft as your end all be all of ship evaluation, tripple rep hyperion uses electron blasters, aka your damage application is actually far less than a maelstrom loaded with gyros and TE.

Dual xl asb Maelstrom also is more or less immune to cap, Hyperion is not. With the inevitable spam of OP Geddon Cheese in the near future, I don't see how a tripple rep Hyperion will be better than a maelstrom for almost anything.

In conclusion, go back to failheap prom, your badness is not wanted here.


A couple things to get out of the way first;
Maelstroms are much less mobile than any Gallente BS, which means tackle range isn't necessarily a limitation.
Maelstroms are used in fleets because of their ALPHA, not because of their incredible tanking ability.

Yes, dual (or triple for overlap/duration) XLASB Maelstroms are immune to cap.
Yes, the Hyperion (or any other non-minmatar bs) is afraid of cap warfare.

I'm totally aware of that, but it isn't the reason why I'd prefer a HP reduction with the 757 layout.
This is supposed to be a tiericide, meaning the ships should be within certain performance boundaries.

If you keep the hitpoint level as it stands, then the ships is head and shoulders above every other BS.

Range issues aside, it would have (by far) the biggest unaided active tank (this isn't triple rep), the biggest passive tank, & the most dps (on paper). That completely negates the new Mega (which looks great btw) and further gives passive tanking Hyps the edge.

Maybe my proposed reductions are a bit off, but that's what testing is for. If you're going to give a ship a bonus to tanking (a la Maelstrom), then you'd better be making active tanking the more appealing method.

If you're not cool with that, keep talking smack behind your alt Smile
 www.promsrage.com
#610 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:33  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
Completely redo the slot layout of the mega and the Hyperion

Hyperion should hit 8 lows 5 mid 6 high

Mega 7 lows 6 high 6 mids

Total overhaul of slot layout.

Dunno but that'd help the tank out allot

The above is a joke... But the ships need a total rework.
#611 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:34
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi again Gallente friends!

We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Thanks again for the input!



Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#612 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:35
Megathron: 8 turrets, 8-4-7 layout, retain damage and tracking bonus. Use as generic gank platform or fleet rail BS, with lesser tank but superior close-range applied DPS, relative to the Rokh.

Hyperion: 7 turrets, 7-5-7 layout, 7.5% bonuses to damage and local rep amount. Five meds enables dual cap booster for viable active armour tank, assisted by greater turret cap efficiency, while also retaining full gank shield option.

Dominix. Tweak fittings.

Question
C C P Alliance
#613 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:35
Quote:
Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?


I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
@ccp_rise
#614 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:37
Count me as another person that really appreciates the Dominix's ability to do obscene DPS with blasters and drones together on a webbed (or double webbed) target.

At the moment, the Dominix runs on the basis of "Great drone damage; halfway decent blaster damage; solid active armor tank; solid buffer armor tank: Choose two". After the overhaul it loses option 2.
Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com.
#615 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:37
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?


I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.



Hint.. the minmatar one has a lot of rage as well. Just that the rage is UNIFORM therefore there are les sposts because there are no one defending the changes... so no much discussion
Goonswarm Federation
#616 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:38
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi again Gallente friends!

We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Thanks again for the input!


Any chance of a sneek peek now?Big smile
Southern Federation
#617 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:38
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi again Gallente friends!

We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Thanks again for the input!

You better bring back my versatile Dominix, or I'll hit your jaw right through the monitor.
Seriously, sentry drones are too strong compared to other drone types. No need to emphasize their strength even futher.
Caldari State
#618 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:38
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi again Gallente friends!

We've just had a meeting with the balance team to weigh all your feedback and go over our options for this ship line. We have come up with some new solutions which I think you will be happy about.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Thanks again for the input!



Keep up the good work, especially the parts where you include your vision of why you are making changes.

Your job will get depressing. But keep at it, ignore the haters, you are doing great so far.


Gallente Federation
#619 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:39
Askulf Joringer wrote:
It's not quite that simple... The complaints arise from the overall effect they will have on the niche rolls of each ship. Despite what the baddies have said, the Hyperion does not work as a dual rep ship w/o the usage of two cap boosters which is why the complaints about the loss of a mid are so prevelant. At the same time the loss of a low on the mega (even with the increase dps from a Rof bonus) combined with the loss of a heavy drone has a negative impact on the dps capability of a plated Megathron.

Oversimplifying the complaints into (fear of change) is honestly a slight against the people who have explained the reason behind their negative feedback. I'd suggest opening your eyes and reading into the responses next time.

I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?

As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.

Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.
#620 Posted: 2013.04.09 11:41
To anyone suggesting that the Hyperion should lose hi-slots or turret hardpoints: no. It can't be done, currently, because art assets constain them from doing that. The Hyperion very, very clearly has eight turret hardpoints on the base model. Unless the ship was actively remodelled at the same time as the stats change, they can't get rid of guns or hardpoints.
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