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[Odyssey] District satellites and default overviews

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C C P Alliance
#21 - 2013-05-29 01:45:01 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
Why would you highlight a satellite that a player is currently on grid with? Why don't we just make ships that are on directional scan warpable too? This is a dumb change and makes finding bombers way too easy. For all your talk about how improved the scanning system is and how you are about to release an entire expansion based on exploring, removing the need to scan down a pilot on a district is dumb.


This has nothing to do with scanning changes. This was a design decision made last year that we wanted people doing orbital bombardments for DUST to be slightly more exposed. If you are sitting in orbit of a planet waiting to bombard, we want people to know and come say hi... with guns.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

#22 - 2013-05-29 03:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Winterblink
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.
#23 - 2013-05-29 03:09:48 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
Why would you highlight a satellite that a player is currently on grid with? Why don't we just make ships that are on directional scan warpable too? This is a dumb change and makes finding bombers way too easy. For all your talk about how improved the scanning system is and how you are about to release an entire expansion based on exploring, removing the need to scan down a pilot on a district is dumb.


This has nothing to do with scanning changes. This was a design decision made last year that we wanted people doing orbital bombardments for DUST to be slightly more exposed. If you are sitting in orbit of a planet waiting to bombard, we want people to know and come say hi... with guns.

They have to be within 10km, connected to the district, and fitted with ammo that doesn't allow them to shoot at other ships. But that wasn't exposed enough for you? SO now you put up a beacon that let's everyone and their mother know exactly where you are and you want DUST and EVE to work together? I still think the idea you have is dumb, if people wanted to find ships doing bombardments they would scan the system, all you have to do is fly to a planet and D-scan to find them. Or they would already know what the district was because they were planning on doing bombardments for the other side. Making the beacon a warpable point when someone is on grid with it is exactly what people talk about when they say you are dumbing EVE down.

Get your alphanados into lowsec people, because now you will know exactly where bombers are without even so much as needing your scanner open.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

#24 - 2013-05-29 03:11:28 UTC
Winterblink wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.

Coordinating with DUST players is exactly what should have to happen. If you aren't then what is the point of you even sitting in space above a district.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

#25 - 2013-05-29 03:15:45 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
Winterblink wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.

Coordinating with DUST players is exactly what should have to happen. If you aren't then what is the point of you even sitting in space above a district.

Lets say you're someone rolled in with FW but only want to support DUST matches from orbit. Surely there should be an ability to do so without having a buddy in a DUST match call you up or message you to help out.

Not only does it allow for solo gameplay, but it has the happy side effects of providing more combat support to DUST players, and putting your ass on the line for other players who might choose to defend those districts to engage you.
#26 - 2013-05-29 07:29:54 UTC
Don't make it visible if a ships is on grid with the satellite, make them visible when a fight is happening. Idea by crazy space 1 on the Dust forums: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=875778#post875778

Crazy Space 1 wrote:

the satellites should turn on everyones overview as long as any eve OR dust player is there.

That way it doesn't give away that an eve pilot is there but it does tell everyone in system war is going on in some fashion over there.

Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-29 08:18:58 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
Why would you highlight a satellite that a player is currently on grid with? Why don't we just make ships that are on directional scan warpable too? This is a dumb change and makes finding bombers way too easy. For all your talk about how improved the scanning system is and how you are about to release an entire expansion based on exploring, removing the need to scan down a pilot on a district is dumb.


This has nothing to do with scanning changes. This was a design decision made last year that we wanted people doing orbital bombardments for DUST to be slightly more exposed. If you are sitting in orbit of a planet waiting to bombard, we want people to know and come say hi... with guns.


Devil's advocate - why don't you do the same for asteroid belts - so that we know which ones are populated by another player?
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2013-05-29 10:18:25 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Could you make ABSOLUTELY SURE; that you don't accidentially remove something from peoples overviews?

Getting volleyd by an invisible tornado is unpleasant.


That had nothing to do with removing things. The battlecruisers were moved to new groups. This is kind of the same thing. We added the satellite and it got a new group. So everyone needs to add it to their overviews.


Fair enough, getting volleyd by an invisible Abc was still very unpleasant :P

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Rytell Tybat
#29 - 2013-05-29 10:30:14 UTC
More game mechanics that have little or no in game rationale, aside from trying to shoe horn in a mechanic/result. Free intel? All that talk from CCP about how you don't like how local is being used as free intel and you add a system that just gives more of it?
Trigger Warnings
#30 - 2013-05-29 11:03:47 UTC
Winterblink wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.


I think said just before, but it sounds like the satellite beacon will only show on the overview if there is a ship on-grid with the beacon.

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C C P Alliance
#31 - 2013-05-29 12:42:27 UTC
Winterblink wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.


Not when the battle is active, when there is a ship on grid with the satellite. Doesn't matter if there is a battle or not on the district.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

C C P Alliance
#32 - 2013-05-29 12:43:24 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Could you make ABSOLUTELY SURE; that you don't accidentially remove something from peoples overviews?

Getting volleyd by an invisible tornado is unpleasant.


That had nothing to do with removing things. The battlecruisers were moved to new groups. This is kind of the same thing. We added the satellite and it got a new group. So everyone needs to add it to their overviews.


Fair enough, getting volleyd by an invisible Abc was still very unpleasant :P


Not disagreeing. I really wish we had a better way to update overviews. :(

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Caldari State
#33 - 2013-05-29 13:29:06 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Winterblink wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight.

If I've got them on my overview and no battles are in progress in the system I'm in I won't see a satellite active. However when a DUST fight kicks off on planet 1 district 5, that satellite will become visible on my overview system wide?

If this is the case then this is PRECISELY what I was hoping would happen in EVE, because currently there's no sensible way of roaming around and finding a ground battle to support without coordinating with DUST players.


Not when the battle is active, when there is a ship on grid with the satellite. Doesn't matter if there is a battle or not on the district.


To be honest, that is a bad design, it should be like Winterblink suggested.
Therefore we would be able to find the battles faster and maybe someone to shot at that happens to be just there and not make the whole thing just a place for easy kills. Because right now you need special ammo/weapons for an orbital bombardement which renders you almost defenseless for spaceships.
If those that want to participate are even visible for anyone without the need to scann them down first or be lucky at a district satelite, I'm quite confident that you won't see many EVE players participate. As you could just as well light a cyno in aan expansive ship in lowsec with neuts in local ...
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2013-05-29 14:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP FoxFour
We have other plans for showing when and where there are active battles. This decision was made, as I said about a year ago, for several reasons. We were adding a new place for people to warp to while in these systems but unless we made them a global celestial you would just see them warp in a random direction and probably assume it was a safe spot. If we just added them all to overviews it would be be several hundred celestials added to overviews in these systems and that is no good.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

#35 - 2013-05-29 21:44:37 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
We have other plans for showing when and where there are active battles. This decision was made, as I said about a year ago, for several reasons. We were adding a new place for people to warp to while in these systems but unless we made them a global celestial you would just see them warp in a random direction and probably assume it was a safe spot. If we just added them all to overviews it would be be several hundred celestials added to overviews in these systems and that is no good.

Yeah well that is what is nice about MMOs and the patching process, decisions made a year ago can be changed and patched out.

Or why don't we go with Mike deVoids suggestion as well and do the same thing for occupied asteroid belts? I'm sure the low and null miners would love that change.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#36 - 2013-05-29 22:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Verin
I knew it was inevitable, also weird that this isn't a default setting as it should have been when the link went live. So far it is very "safe" giving starship support to dusties because 95% of the populace don't know this mechanic/option exists.

However with this current setup on how the connecting to district works, to a pirate it is pretty much see the active beacon and assume there's one target there, orbiting at between 0-7500km from warp in, and you know that they'll most likely be in a ship set up for Orbitals, not fighting. It's like finding someone in a FW plex but with less dscan. Intel on a Silver Platter.

Of course more organised parties will enjoy the free meal if they warp blind, but solo providers will suffer and may not be willing to adapt, it's already pretty hard for solo parties to find and get involved with the DUST interaction due to a lack of broadcasting where these fights take place, I can see this just putting them off completely.

Making active battle Satellites appear by themselves is kinda a good idea as it would still require the dscan to determine if anyone's there. Would also solve the "finding battles" issue at least for the short term.

This is by no means a perfect solution and I think it needs more looking over/iteration. You're essentially forcing a method of gameplay (being in a gang) on a player who wants to just provide support, and may need to at a moment's notice. That or your forcing everyone into coercers for Orbitals because screw waiting 5-10 seconds on other firing methods reloads. :P

EDIT: I essentially feel this is too much bias towards untoward parties getting kills, rather than people who are actually using the link providing support.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-05-29 22:57:05 UTC
While your at it, why no LP rewards for the fights?
Have it as a novice reward, split it between everyone on grid / at satelite / connected.
#38 - 2013-06-02 00:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Isn't lighting up a pilot on-grid with an Orbital Bombardment platform the same a lighting a Cyno up though. You see 'em on the overview and in you pounce.

It's a special way to flag someone who's vulnerable and I don't really like that it happens when no battle is in place. Should only activate when there is a Battle and OB is online.
#39 - 2013-06-02 12:44:57 UTC
One positive change to this may be that Tactical EMP crystals might become more popular. The ability to instantly change from orbital ammo to space-fight ammo is going to be important.
SONS of BANE
#40 - 2013-06-03 15:26:22 UTC
Very informative, thank you.


Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Could you make ABSOLUTELY SURE; that you don't accidentially remove something from peoples overviews?

Getting volleyd by an invisible tornado is unpleasant.

I kind of had the same problem, but where more lucky. ;)


I guess every somehow experienced payer does not use the standard interface. Therefor changes like this seem to stay broadly unrecognized.
It would probably be a good idea to communicate this kind of changes a bit better in the future.
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