Features & Ideas Discussion

 
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[SUGGESTION] 0.0 Changes (Jump Freighter nerf)

Author
Against ALL Authorities
#1 - 2013-06-14 06:13:00 UTC
Logistics is an arduous task. There is no question that at times it takes hours of tedious planning and activity that is akin to mining in high-sec, to move/deploy modules, ships, material and structures. However, this is done in relative safety with the use of Jump Freighters.

TL;DR at the end.

Suggestion?
So let’s nerf them. Actually… just remove the jump drive from these ships altogether and see what happens. Consider this a meta-theory – perhaps a starting point for more considered change(s) to the game mechanics.

Issue that this is trying to solve?
- Non-existence of farms-and-fields in EvE and shape of 0.0.
- Lack of activity, particularly in 0.0 and to an extent in low-sec.

How will it solve these issues?

Farms and fields and 0.0

Imagine if a coalition, an alliance, or a corporation needed to move their assets conventionally… gate-to-gate via ships that are basically defenceless, slow and designed to haul a lot of assets/material. This would not only mean from 0.0 to high-sec, but also within the boundaries of 0.0.

Let’s consider the latter (within the boundaries of a 0.0 alliance), where a product produced at Point A (call it a POS or a Refinery), or the proverbial ‘farm’ needed to be moved to Point B (Staging Station). Under current mechanics, this can be accomplished by an x-number cyno jumps that occur in relative safety of numerous POSes and/or stations – with the product reaching the end point safely and reasonably quickly.

If the jump capability was removed, this produce would now need to be flown gate-to-gate from Point A to Point B. This would require a significant amount of planning, it would certainly take more time and would also perhaps require participation of numerous pilots (scouts/escorts/industrialists etc.). It would make the whole process a headache I would imagine.

So, how would that bode for the big alliances, controlling vast areas of space?
- It would add a level of impracticality in effectively controlling large amounts of stations, moons, POSes etc. as you would need to ensure a secure and ongoing logistical chain from these areas to the alliance’s staging systems/trade hubs.
- Local production would be emphasised versus imports from high-sec that take a long time and expose the logistics fleets to increased risks.
- Production of modules and ships that require a significant amount of resources (i.e. Supercapitals) would be slowed due to the requirement for adequate material to be shipped vast distances.
- Deployments and invasion fleets would likewise have to ensure a viable and uninterrupted supply line as they advance into opposing territory or even when defending their own.
- Systems would gain strategic value as choke points; invasions could be crippled by bad supply lines as pilots are left without vital ships and/or modules.
- Power projection would be curbed (to a degree).

0.0/Low-sec Activity

I suppose this one has already been figured out by people that have read thus far, so I won’t spend much time explaining how big, slow and valuable targets travelling gate-to-gate would affect activity, except to say that:
- It would provide small-gang objectives and emphasise roaming fleets that deploy behind enemy lines to disrupt supply chains and can actually make a difference overall by doing this.
- Transports would also have to traverse low-sec, thus giving pirates an incentive to engage the escort fleets en route to high sec.

I would imagine that this change would make a lot of people unhappy, specifically those that are used to current mechanics and know how arduous they are already. I expect a lot of responses saying “logistics is hard/boring already and this change just makes it worse”. I agree. However, I would like to consider in this thread the wider implications of doing just that.

[/b]TL;DR[b]
Take away jump capability of jump freighters making logistics a LOT more difficult and time consuming. This could affect the blueprint of 0.0 alliances and provide a framework for farms and fields design as well as create small-gang objectives both in 0.0 and Low-sec.
Against ALL Authorities
#2 - 2013-06-14 06:13:41 UTC
Reserved.
#3 - 2013-06-14 06:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I have this strong feeling as though you have never piloted a freighter before. I'm also of the opinion that perhaps you don't live in deep backwater null.
Against ALL Authorities
#4 - 2013-06-14 06:42:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I have this strong feeling as though you have never piloted a freighter before. I'm also of the opinion that perhaps you don't live in deep backwater null.


No I have never piloted a freighter before. Killed a few though.

Yes, I have lived in backwater null.

Please feel free to make comments about the suggestion though. I am aware that it lacks specifics, which is why it's not a proposal for a specific change. I am interested in discourse regarding making logistics more arduous and vulnerable as a means of changing the landscape of 0.0 (i.e. removing jump capability of freighters).

I am happy to hear if the proposal has any merit in this regard or be educated otherwise.
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-06-14 06:59:32 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I have this strong feeling as though you have never piloted a freighter before. I'm also of the opinion that perhaps you don't live in deep backwater null.


No I have never piloted a freighter before. Killed a few though.

Yes, I have lived in backwater null.

Please feel free to make comments about the suggestion though. I am aware that it lacks specifics, which is why it's not a proposal for a specific change. I am interested in discourse regarding making logistics more arduous and vulnerable as a means of changing the landscape of 0.0 (i.e. removing jump capability of freighters).

I am happy to hear if the proposal has any merit in this regard or be educated otherwise.


you are asking to remove jf's completely. What's a JF without the the jump, YES! A freighter, buddy.

And this idea is the dumbest one since AFK cloak threads.
#6 - 2013-06-14 07:14:47 UTC
Is there anything else you don't know about but want to change?
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-14 07:36:30 UTC
This suggestion wouldn't be motivated at all by you currently basing in Vlillirier and/or nearby lowsec with 3 to 4 nullsec entry points nearby would it?

...

#8 - 2013-06-14 07:37:35 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Actually… just remove the jump drive from these ships altogether and see what happens.
What happens is people go back to using cargo Dreads and Carriers. Which by the way, is one of the main reasons that Jump Freighters were introduced.


Katie Frost wrote:
Imagine if a coalition, an alliance, or a corporation needed to move their assets conventionally… gate-to-gate via ships that are basically defenceless, slow and designed to haul a lot of assets/material. This would not only mean from 0.0 to high-sec, but also within the boundaries of 0.0.
Yeah umm.... Welcome to 2006? There used to be a time when there were things called "Freighter Ops". Where alliances would spend an entire evening escorting a big fat slow freighter thru nullsec - and that's all they did, all night cuz it was so damn slow. And then players said "this dumb, boring and stupid". And they started jumping stuff with dreads and carriers, or just whined loudly in the forums.

Now don't get me wrong, I think Jump Freighters are terrible for game balance and one of the worst things ever for EvE. BUT.... you also have to remember this is a game. And escorting a freighter is not fun. Doing CTAs just to move stuff around is not fun. Logistics generally sucks and is boring as hell. Some (me included) would say that's the price you pay for living in nullsec. CCP said otherwise and made JFs.

Now I get that you feel that you should have a legit crack at popping a ship full of goodies. I felt the same way when I was playing pirate in lowsec. But you gotta look at it from a realistic point of view. In this day and age, a freighter is not gonna make it far in null. All it takes is a ship with a cyno and you've got a Titan DDing the freighter for lulz. Not cool. You'd need to do a huge variety of changes to make "no-JFs" even vaguely feasible. Sorry.
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-14 07:49:00 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:

Imagine if a coalition, an alliance, or a corporation needed to move their assets conventionally… gate-to-gate via ships that are basically defenceless, slow and designed to haul a lot of assets/material. This would not only mean from 0.0 to high-sec, but also within the boundaries of 0.0.


Also this would be super unlikely to ever happen.

What in reality would happen would be a single jump out of hi-sec, webbed on the other side of the gate into warp to land on a titan followed by a series of titan bridges (and maybe the odd JB) to dest.

...

Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-06-14 10:23:04 UTC
'Logistics is an arduous task. There is no question that at times it takes hours of tedious planning and activity that is akin to mining in high-sec, to move/deploy modules, ships, material and structures. However, this is done in relative safety with the use of Jump Freighters.'

'So let's make it even MORE tedious!'


Why, exactly, do you want to make something that you admit is horrible to try and do even worse? Are you trying to drive players out of the game?
Yulai Federation
#11 - 2013-06-14 11:00:26 UTC
They make null-living tolerable. If you removed them, the big boys will use titan bridges, the small boys will be in viators.
#12 - 2013-06-14 11:02:12 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
'Logistics is an arduous task. There is no question that at times it takes hours of tedious planning and activity that is akin to mining in high-sec, to move/deploy modules, ships, material and structures. However, this is done in relative safety with the use of Jump Freighters.'

'So let's make it even MORE tedious!'


Why, exactly, do you want to make something that you admit is horrible to try and do even worse? Are you trying to drive players out of the game?
This.

**Destination SkillQueue:- ** It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2013-06-14 11:11:51 UTC
Before there were jump freighters, people just used titan bridges to bridge freighters.

If you remove the ability for titans to bridge freighters, people will just use other caps (cargo expanded Rorqual can get something like 126k, carrier has a 10k fleet hangar). People would also just use BLOPs bridged blockade runners to get the job done.

Essentially, any attempt to remove jump drives from logistics will just not work, and people will just work around it.
#14 - 2013-06-14 11:33:45 UTC
And why change it anyway? Tell Freight Club about "totally" safe JFs...

There's enough risk in hauling billions over billions of assets for 0.0 pvp with a several billion hull anyway. If you're too bad to catch JFs in low sec then it isn't CCP's fault.
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-14 11:54:18 UTC
TL;DR....

jump freighters.... so you want to remove JF from the game you mean? you do realize that CCP added this into the game to fix the fact that no one was ever able to get across borders right? its to fix a problem you need to fix that problem to
#16 - 2013-06-22 06:29:03 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:

So let’s nerf them. Actually… just remove the jump drive from these ships altogether and see what happens.


wut.
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