Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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#201 - 2013-07-18 14:39:14 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
About the Ishtar:

The domi's bonus for drones is nice, but why is the slot layout still so heavily taylored towards shield tanking and the CPU still WAY too low to fit any semblance of a serious spider tank?


The ishtar needs a more unique flavour to it and unique drone bonus would be nice otherwise i still like the NVexor more..


The Ishtar's bonuses - just like the Domi's - are taylored towards sentry drones, while the VNI's are leaning towards heavy and med's. The main reason why you're not seeing the different flavour is that heavy drones are pretty useless right now, so VNI pilots still use sentries despite wasting part of their ship's bonus that way.
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2013-07-18 14:41:04 UTC
Does anyone use the Muninn as a long range platform? I would think a 4th mid would be more useful than an additional low.
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-07-18 14:41:25 UTC
Esharan wrote:
Hi Rise,

I'm not important, but I fly a lot of Vagabonds and have for years.

I think the shield boost bonus is...just like totally useless. I mean its cool you added the speed bonus to the base stats; but the % of people that are going to plop a SB on a vagabond is so small because it's gonna lose its cap too fast with MWD/Shield Booster and lets face it, the Vagabond is a kiter.

Isn't there anything else you could slap on it? Tracking? ROF? even additional sig reduction like 4% per level so the Vaga has a real small signature radius - like frigate sized..idk.

The SB bonus just seems like an enormous waste of space.


Fit an ASB, if cap is what worries you.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2013-07-18 14:41:47 UTC
David Kir wrote:


The Vagabond's speed was not nerfed.

Read up before posting, don't be a fool.


It did get nerfed a tiny bit, in fact.

Current base speed of a Vagabond is 239m/s, according to my EVEMon.

The current speed bonus is 25%. This bonus is always applied as you need Minmatar Cruiser at V to even fly the Vagabond. The base with the bonus is therefore:

239m/s * 1.25 = 298.75m/s

The new Vagabond gets 290m/s base.

The rest (Navigation skill, prop mods etc.) should apply in the same manner to those values, so the new Vagabond should be always slightly slower with the same fitting and skills.

Not sure how big the difference is with full fits though. I doubt it really matters, even though people will probably still feel they lost something. You know how EVE players are.



But anyway, i'm mostly ok with what i see, for now. Ishtar could use some more CPU. Other than that, i first have to look at some updated fits and compare to other ship classes with similar roles to really see what is going on.
#205 - 2013-07-18 14:42:56 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
About the Ishtar:

The domi's bonus for drones is nice, but why is the slot layout still so heavily taylored towards shield tanking and the CPU still WAY too low to fit any semblance of a serious spider tank?


The ishtar needs a more unique flavour to it and unique drone bonus would be nice otherwise i still like the NVexor more..


The Ishtar's bonuses - just like the Domi's - are taylored towards sentry drones, while the VNI's are leaning towards heavy and med's. The main reason why you're not seeing the different flavour is that heavy drones are pretty useless right now, so VNI pilots still use sentries despite wasting part of their ship's bonus that way.

These are supposed to be a step up and greater specialized than there navy variants, again we get a "I don't know what else to do for a drone bonus so I will give it a sentry bonus and call it good."

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

#206 - 2013-07-18 14:43:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise...can you give us a view of what niche the HAC is supposed to fill in the Eve patheon of ships?
To me at least, the term Assault means "hurting things".

What does it mean to you?

Given that the T1 equivalents can dish out more DPS in some cases, while at the same time, fit a healthy tank, why would anyone ever fly a HAC in heavy fighting? And that does not even factor in the cost issue of a 10:1 hull cost.


indeed they seem to be a hot-potch of brawlers and snipers..
the mwd bonus would make sense with a kitey dps role .. an attack role

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2013-07-18 14:43:08 UTC
Ivol Kishtani wrote:
Does anyone use the Muninn as a long range platform? I would think a 4th mid would be more useful than an additional low.


It's often used in armor alpha gangs, and quite effectively so.
The extra low gives it that little bit of tank or damage it needs.
BL Muninn+Huginn gangs are infamous.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Mercenary Coalition
#208 - 2013-07-18 14:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SokoleOko
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Given that the T1 equivalents can dish out more DPS in some cases, while at the same time, fit a healthy tank, why would anyone ever fly a HAC in heavy fighting? And that does not even factor in the cost issue of a 10:1 hull cost.


Not to mention that T1 hull can be insured, T2 not really.

I'm dissapointed. Other than repeating AFs bonus, there's really nothing new. OK, ASB Vagabond could be interesting, but would it really kill you, CCP Rise (pun intended) to give Vagabond a mere 30 PG more so it could fit 5x220mm AC, meta 4 medium neut and 2 T2 LSEs without gimiping fit with PDS or using implant? Really?

Sacrilege is still crap. HMLs won't solve main issue of this ship which is laughable DPS when active tanked. It can't kill ships fast enough before cavalry arrives and die to it.

Cerberus still can't fit 2nd LSE and all launchers, making it having worst shield tank.

In general - I've expected some buffs across the board (like +10% to EHP) to make HACs better than T1 cruisers and more competitive against ABCs. The current proposal just won't cut it, sorry.
#209 - 2013-07-18 14:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Harvey James wrote:
Fr0stle wrote:
I'll just add my voice to the group and ask for some more CPU on the Ishtar. It was always CPU gimped and now we have all these new drone modules that are CPU heavy too. More CPU is needed to make this ship viable in it's intended role.

that and reducing CPU on all drone mods would make sense ... also add a drone tracking for the lows like a TE for drones.

…or, hell, just to enforce the whole “T2 = specialisation” angle…

How about having the Ishtar reduce the CPU need for drone mods? That way, the ship can maintain its limited CPU to keep it from being too versatile, but you can still pack it absolutely full of the very specific set of mods that are related to its niche without making those available to every ship out there.

At -10%/level, that would mean Omnilink IIs at 29.5 tf, Drone link IIs at 27.5 tf, and Drone damage amps at 15 tf when you have HAC V.
#210 - 2013-07-18 14:49:03 UTC
Excited for the changes! The Ishtar seriously needs a CPU boost though or a reduction to CPU of drone mods.
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2013-07-18 14:49:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Fr0stle wrote:
I'll just add my voice to the group and ask for some more CPU on the Ishtar. It was always CPU gimped and now we have all these new drone modules that are CPU heavy too. More CPU is needed to make this ship viable in it's intended role.

that and reducing CPU on all drone mods would make sense ... also add a drone tracking for the lows like a TE for drones.

…or, hell, just to enforce the whole “T2 = specialisation” angle…

How about having the Ishtar reduce the CPU need for drone mods? That way, the ship can maintain its limited CPU to keep it from being too versatile, but you can still pack it absolutely full of the very specific set of mods that are related to its niche without making those available to every ship out there.

At -10%/level, that would mean Omnilink IIs at 29.5 tf, Drone link IIs at 27.5 tf, and Drone damage amps at 15 tf when you have HAC V.

The first decent idea you have ever had.
C C P Alliance
#212 - 2013-07-18 14:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Alright I've been pretty busy today but I'm trying to catch up on feedback. Here's some initial thoughts:

I'll look at the Ishtar fitting. To me it seems like one of the stronger HACs already and it gained a bonus to damage projection and application so I didn't see a need to give it even more buffs. I don't think of it as a ship that ought to be running medium sized mods in all its high slots. All that said, I'll have another look.

While the Sacrilege didn't gain bonuses or slot changes, the added PG and added drone bay push it over the edge I think it would become a solid heavy brawler with a lot of utility. I spent some time trying to find a 4th bonus that fits better than the cap recharge bonus but it's actually very difficult. I think keeping its character as a really sturdy bruiser seems more interesting than anything else I've come across, but I'll keep watching feedback on this. Its really important to me that this both useful and fun.

I think the Cerberus is going to be really powerful. It can now do the extremely long range thing with HML as well as added capacity to be an amazing HAM skirmisher. The role bonus means it has a lot of added survivability while it establishes or maintains range for both roles.

On a related note: someone commented that because HACs with MWD active have larger sig than battleship gun resolution the role bonus is useless. This is not true and I recommend you hop over to the medium weapon balance thread and read some of the explanation for the way tracking works to find out why.

The role of HACs generally is kind of unusual. They don't have a strong role to fill in the same way that dictors or recons do, but we didn't think it was worthwhile to completely redesign them to provide that kind of role, given their history in the game and the popularity that some of them have acquired. Instead we decided to focus on their generally defensive nature with the sig bloom bonus, and just try to make sure each ship was providing something interesting enough to set it apart from competing battle cruisers or cruisers.

Keep it coming, glad that a lot of you seem excited

@ccp_rise

Rote Kapelle
#213 - 2013-07-18 14:52:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Fr0stle wrote:
I'll just add my voice to the group and ask for some more CPU on the Ishtar. It was always CPU gimped and now we have all these new drone modules that are CPU heavy too. More CPU is needed to make this ship viable in it's intended role.

that and reducing CPU on all drone mods would make sense ... also add a drone tracking for the lows like a TE for drones.

…or, hell, just to enforce the whole “T2 = specialisation” angle…

How about having the Ishtar reduce the CPU need for drone mods? That way, the ship can maintain its limited CPU to keep it from being too versatile, but you can still pack it absolutely full of the very specific set of mods that are related to its niche without making those available to every ship out there.

At -10%/level, that would mean Omnilink IIs at 29.5 tf, Drone link IIs at 27.5 tf, and Drone damage amps at 15 tf when you have HAC V.
Let's not start a trend where the bonus is that you can fit your ship. The fitting should be acceptable for a "normal" fit without having to add bonuses in order to do so. fitting something nontraditional should require fitting mods or rigs, which is working as intended.

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skill urself
#214 - 2013-07-18 14:52:28 UTC
Deimos is just yummy, best support for our machs!

But yea, not sure about that vaga - I gues you guys are just reinforcing the whole ASB vaga brawl stuff, +1 from me anyways.

<3

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.

Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2013-07-18 14:52:29 UTC
Azula Kishtar wrote:
David Kir wrote:


The Vagabond's speed was not nerfed.

Read up before posting, don't be a fool.


It did get nerfed a tiny bit, in fact.

Current base speed of a Vagabond is 239m/s, according to my EVEMon.

The current speed bonus is 25%. This bonus is always applied as you need Minmatar Cruiser at V to even fly the Vagabond. The base with the bonus is therefore:

239m/s * 1.25 = 298.75m/s

The new Vagabond gets 290m/s base.

The rest (Navigation skill, prop mods etc.) should apply in the same manner to those values, so the new Vagabond should be always slightly slower with the same fitting and skills.

Not sure how big the difference is with full fits though. I doubt it really matters, even though people will probably still feel they lost something. You know how EVE players are.



But anyway, i'm mostly ok with what i see, for now. Ishtar could use some more CPU. Other than that, i first have to look at some updated fits and compare to other ship classes with similar roles to really see what is going on.




Hmm, CCP trying to pass minuscule nerfs under the radar... this sounds familiar, doesn't it.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Gallente Federation
#216 - 2013-07-18 14:53:03 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
ISHTAR - We are replacing the medium hybrid damage bonus with a drone bonus and removing one high slot to put its total 1 below the rest of the class, as is standard for drone-focused ships.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and Damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
50 m3 extra Drone Bay per level

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 700 PWG, 285 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1600(-18) / 2300(+191)
Capacitor (amount) : 1300(+175)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 185(-6) / .52 / 11700000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 145
Well, initial thoughts on this: WHY IS THE ISHTAR STILL CRIPPLED BY ITS CPU?! Come on, it is the hardest ship to fit--by far--from its horrendous CPU. Even a Nexor has 310 CPU before skills! Second, remove the stupid drone bay bonus. Buff the bay to 375 and give the ship another, more useful bonus. This bonus is the most wasted one I can imagine. Don't make a drone ship *increase the drone bay* as a bonus. Give it another bonus that's more useful.


I'm in agreement here. CPU is quite hampered. And it really needs something else, though that something else might be more of the drone overhaul.

Yaay!!!!

Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2013-07-18 14:53:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright I've been pretty busy today but I'm trying to catch up on feedback. Here's some initial thoughts:

I'll look at the Ishtar fitting. To me it seems like one of the stronger HACs already and it gained a bonus to damage projection and application so I didn't see a need to give it even more buffs. I don't think of it as a ship that ought to be running medium sized mods in all its high slots. All that said, I'll have another look.

While the Sacrilege didn't gain bonuses or slot changes, the added PG and added drone bay push it over the edge I think it would become a solid heavy brawler with a lot of utility. I spent some time trying to find a 4th bonus that fits better than the cap recharge bonus but it's actually very difficult. I think keeping its character as a really sturdy bruiser seems more interesting than anything else I've come across, but I'll keep watching feedback on this. Its really important to me that this both useful and fun.

I think the Cerberus is going to be really powerful. It can now do the extremely long range thing with HML as well as added capacity to be an amazing HAM skirmisher. The role bonus means it has a lot of added survivability while it establishes or maintains range for both roles.

On a related note: someone commented that because HACs with MWD active have larger sig than battleship gun resolution the role bonus is useless. This is not true and I recommend you hop over to the medium weapon balance thread and read some of the explanation for the way tracking works to find out why.

Generally on the role of HACs I think theres a lot of disagreement because people seem to have different ideas of what they are supposed to do. The easiest thing to say on this is that they are not supposed to out-perform t1 or faction cruisers in every way. With this role bonus addition we are really emphasizing that they are supposed to be harder to kill than t1 or faction variations, which is true also for Assault Frigs. They have much better effective HP coming from both base HP and resists. This lends them to both large fleets, where they can be very difficult to kill, or small engagements where they provide a great platform for both primary damage and anti-support which isn't nearly as easy to kill as lower tech variations.

Keep it coming, glad that a lot of you seem excited


Nice stealthy Vaga speed nerf.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Amarr Empire
#218 - 2013-07-18 14:53:43 UTC
I dont get whats the problem with ishtar's cpu. Even if it has to fit some cpu mods/rigs it is still an awesome ship 650+ dps at 100km+ range is pretty awesome for a med hull.
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2013-07-18 14:54:27 UTC
OMG heavy drones are notviable in pvp ffs either buf drone speed, give drone speed bonus, or give the ishtar a sentry bonus like the domi. Sentry ishtars are viable.
#220 - 2013-07-18 14:54:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Fr0stle wrote:
I'll just add my voice to the group and ask for some more CPU on the Ishtar. It was always CPU gimped and now we have all these new drone modules that are CPU heavy too. More CPU is needed to make this ship viable in it's intended role.

that and reducing CPU on all drone mods would make sense ... also add a drone tracking for the lows like a TE for drones.

…or, hell, just to enforce the whole “T2 = specialisation” angle…

How about having the Ishtar reduce the CPU need for drone mods? That way, the ship can maintain its limited CPU to keep it from being too versatile, but you can still pack it absolutely full of the very specific set of mods that are related to its niche without making those available to every ship out there.

At -10%/level, that would mean Omnilink IIs at 29.5 tf, Drone link IIs at 27.5 tf, and Drone damage amps at 15 tf when you have HAC V.

So in a bonus redo for the Ishtar we could/would like to see
Gallente Cruiser
10% Drone damage and HP per level
5% Drone Tracking and MWD velocity per level
Heavy Assault Ships
-10% to the CPU need of Drone Upgrade Modules per level
10% to Drone Tracking and Optimal range per level

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

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