Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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New Eden Trading Company.
#681 - 2013-07-19 10:30:29 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
@Alek
How exactly is the new Eagle a better brawler?
You're not gaining much hp, since you now need to fit an injector in that free mid instead of a nos.

You could use an injector or fit more more tackle or more tank. It increases the versatility. ABs, remote cap transfer, low cap ammo. The nos was not critical to the blaster eagle concept.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Minmatar Republic
#682 - 2013-07-19 10:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Altrue wrote:
290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ? Lol



a Missile boat at vagabond level speed woudl be simply INSANE!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Minmatar Republic
#683 - 2013-07-19 11:01:54 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Don't forget that the (beam) zealot just got a 20% DPS buff.


Oh good, I'm glad we've upgraded from "causes a slight tickling sensation in the fingertips" to "mild discomfort" levels of damage. You CSM guys are real heroes, convincing CCP to give us these massive buffs.


If that's what you think about the Zealot, you damn sure shouldn't fly one.
400+ dps at any range below 40 km, instantly changeable ammo, 70+k ehp tank (sans links/boosters/environmental effects) with an awesome resist profile.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Minmatar Republic
#684 - 2013-07-19 11:03:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Altrue wrote:
290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ? Lol



a Missile boat at vagabond level speed woudl be simply INSANE!


We already have linked LM Condors stomping on everything else in FW, no more high speed missile boats please.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Minmatar Republic
#685 - 2013-07-19 11:04:12 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
The Sacrilege needs more DPS output, besides the change to HML (that will solve the range problem but will agravate the DPS one) a solution would be add a 6th laucher to be on pair with the other hacs out there. On the trade off reduce the drone bandwit from the proposed 50 to 25.

Lets be honest you are proposing 6 lauchers to the cerberus that will have the the hability to kite the damage. The sacrilege will not have that hability but it will have the armor bonus , but again misses the 6th launcher.



The funny thing is.. Sacriledge that almost dont use cap.. has a cap bonus. While amarr laser boats... like apoc do not anymore :/


strange days we live in...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

WE FORM V0LTA
#686 - 2013-07-19 11:07:08 UTC
Alright, I did some EFTwarrioring today.

The Cerberus' grid is pretty low. 2x LSE fits are pretty much mandatory on cruiser-sized shield ships. It should be possible on the main shield HAC.

The Eagles' grid is a bit low too. A rack of Railguns + LSE needs a 3% PWG implant. Of course you can downgrade the railguns but then you lose 10km range.

The shield RailDeimos is interesting. It still needs a 3% PWG implant to fit even with meta 4 LSEs. You get a 22+32km range. A slight PWG bump would help the Deimos' case and wouldn't be a powercreep.

Regarding the Ishtar...well, CPU really is an issue. PWG isn't really optimal either.

The Sacrilege is good.

The blasterDeimos is ok too. But I still think the speed gap between the Vagabond's speed and the Deimos' speed is too large. The Deimos goes at 1.8km/s, the Vagabond goes at 2.4km/s. The Deimos should go at about 2.1km/s imo.

More feedback to come when I get back home.
Amarr Empire
#687 - 2013-07-19 11:09:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
DeadDuck wrote:
The Sacrilege needs more DPS output, besides the change to HML (that will solve the range problem but will agravate the DPS one) a solution would be add a 6th laucher to be on pair with the other hacs out there. On the trade off reduce the drone bandwit from the proposed 50 to 25.

Lets be honest you are proposing 6 lauchers to the cerberus that will have the the hability to kite the damage. The sacrilege will not have that hability but it will have the armor bonus , but again misses the 6th launcher.



The funny thing is.. Sacriledge that almost dont use cap.. has a cap bonus. While amarr laser boats... like apoc do not anymore :/


strange days we live in...



I only saw dual rep fits but cap recharge bonus is not that strong there.
Amarr Empire
#688 - 2013-07-19 11:11:04 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Alright, I did some EFTwarrioring today.

......

The Sacrilege is good.

......


What fit did you use? I always seem to miss some cpu
Minmatar Republic
#689 - 2013-07-19 11:11:37 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Alright, I did some EFTwarrioring today.

The Cerberus' grid is pretty low. 2x LSE fits are pretty much mandatory on cruiser-sized shield ships. It should be possible on the main shield HAC.

The Eagles' grid is a bit low too. A rack of Railguns + LSE needs a 3% PWG implant. Of course you can downgrade the railguns but then you lose 10km range.

The shield RailDeimos is interesting. It still needs a 3% PWG implant to fit even with meta 4 LSEs. You get a 22+32km range. A slight PWG bump would help the Deimos' case and wouldn't be a powercreep.

Regarding the Ishtar...well, CPU really is an issue. PWG isn't really optimal either.

The Sacrilege is good.

The blasterDeimos is ok too. But I still think the speed gap between the Vagabond's speed and the Deimos' speed is too large. The Deimos goes at 1.8km/s, the Vagabond goes at 2.4km/s. The Deimos should go at about 2.1km/s imo.

More feedback to come when I get back home.



Deimos DPS is WAYYYYYY larger than vagabond. It woudl need to loose DPS to get that extra speed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Gallente Federation
#690 - 2013-07-19 11:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: The Spod
ISHTAR

The proposed changes make this easily the most overpowered subcapital for fleet fights that has been since the nano ages. It is a Dominix class focused damage projector with enough speed/sig to make it untouchable for anything except for other HACs. It can drop the assisted sentries in patterns that are not vulnerable to bombs thanks to the speed that allows wide distance between drone drops.

The only thing holding Ishtar back from complete dominance is CPU now. If the changes go live as is, CO-processors will see use. Buffing that CPU would be a mistake.
#691 - 2013-07-19 11:18:15 UTC
Prices of HACs begin to soar.
#692 - 2013-07-19 11:19:29 UTC
With regards to HACs in a sniper role, would a bonus to scan resolution not be unreasonable? (in the place of the MWD bonus?)

Replacing speed bonus with the ability to get off the first shot (or shots) gives it a viable sniper role against small targets, and could quite possibly create a nice conflict pitting the skills of a fast tackler against the quick, long reach of a rapid-locking sniper.

Might be a direction to consider instead of the brawling/speeding angle.
The Tuskers Co.
#693 - 2013-07-19 11:28:16 UTC
Guys, just because a ship fits an XLASB does not mean it has to brawl! Shocking I know.

The new Vaga looks interesting. But after having a play with it in EFT it is crying out for a tiny bit more CPU and power grid. The damage application feels rather weak since the TE nerf. Maybe boost the falloff bonus by a few % points?

Have to say overall the changes look good and actually have me excited about the prospect of flying HACs again Big smile
C C P Alliance
#694 - 2013-07-19 11:42:25 UTC
Hey guys, I'm back at work after having nightmares all night of running out of Ishtar CPU

We're reading all this, as usual, and will iterate based on it, as usual. We have some time (because everyone here is on vacation so I can do what I want #yolobalancing) so I want to wait until after the weekend to commit to anything. I might post again in a bit about some of our high level strategy as there is clearly some frustration about the contrast between HACs and the nice powerpoints about T2 specialization.

Please keep up the discussion and I'll be back soon with more info.

@ccp_rise

#695 - 2013-07-19 11:46:20 UTC
Will drones as a whole ever see a balance pass? I am sure it makes it quite hard to try to balance drone ships with such a broken and neglected weapon system.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Minmatar Republic
#696 - 2013-07-19 11:51:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys, I'm back at work after having nightmares all night of running out of Ishtar CPU

We're reading all this, as usual, and will iterate based on it, as usual. We have some time (because everyone here is on vacation so I can do what I want #yolobalancing) so I want to wait until after the weekend to commit to anything. I might post again in a bit about some of our high level strategy as there is clearly some frustration about the contrast between HACs and the nice powerpoints about T2 specialization.

Please keep up the discussion and I'll be back soon with more info.


Then please do so.
Most of us do not really see where does the Eagle fit in, as well as many other HACs.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Mean Coalition
#697 - 2013-07-19 11:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Kagura Nikon wrote:
DeadDuck wrote:
The Sacrilege needs more DPS output, besides the change to HML (that will solve the range problem but will agravate the DPS one) a solution would be add a 6th laucher to be on pair with the other hacs out there. On the trade off reduce the drone bandwit from the proposed 50 to 25.

Lets be honest you are proposing 6 lauchers to the cerberus that will have the the hability to kite the damage. The sacrilege will not have that hability but it will have the armor bonus , but again misses the 6th launcher.



The funny thing is.. Sacriledge that almost dont use cap.. has a cap bonus. While amarr laser boats... like apoc do not anymore :/


strange days we live in...


It was a massive active tanking laser ship a few years ago, basically a maller with twice the tank. I in general like the extreme good cap on the Sac, because it lets you run mwd, active tank or even 100mn AB fittings without the cap booster, what frees up a med slot, that most other hacs have to spend on a cap booster.

However as long as it overlaps the role of the HAM drake it will be not worth the cost, like posted a few pages ago, role in the cap bonus, give it 15-20% missile velocity for HAMs per level, remove the damage bonus for HMs, add a 6. launcher or a bit higher damage bonus(in exchange for the drones) and maybe make it a little faster(since it is very slow once you plate fit and armor rig it). It wasn't bad as a HAM ship before the HAM range nerf, it just has no real role to fill what other ships can't fill cheaper and better currently. While tanky HAC with ok dps at 20-40km range might be not the most frequent to fill role in eve, it was a lot better than close range hac with A no tank or B no dps.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Caldari State
#698 - 2013-07-19 11:54:13 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys, I'm back at work after having nightmares all night of running out of Ishtar CPU

We're reading all this, as usual, and will iterate based on it, as usual. We have some time (because everyone here is on vacation so I can do what I want #yolobalancing) so I want to wait until after the weekend to commit to anything. I might post again in a bit about some of our high level strategy as there is clearly some frustration about the contrast between HACs and the nice powerpoints about T2 specialization.

Please keep up the discussion and I'll be back soon with more info.


Shocking that a Gallente ship is the first to be looked at (judging from your previous post). Their BS's were immediately fixed in their tieracide while the other races went 100+ pages with no meaningful iteration.
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2013-07-19 11:56:29 UTC
Hello. Thx CCP Rise for heads up. But i repeat so it stays here. I repeat.

Take a triple check on Ishtar please. Thank you.

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.

#700 - 2013-07-19 12:03:19 UTC
David Kir wrote:

Then please do so.
Most of us do not really see where does the Eagle fit in, as well as many other HACs.


I'll still suggest, for any rail-based snipers, to boost the scan resolution, and make it a frig/destroyer sniper.

Drop the MWD bonus, and turn it into a race between the HAC getting the shot off, or the Inty closing the distance to get under it's tracking.


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