EVE General Discussion

 
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Margin Trading Scam...

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#121 - 2013-07-22 23:28:56 UTC

I hate scammers, which is why I took the "scam" of isk doubling and turned it into an honest game with rules. But enough about me.

The topic at hand is the margin scam. How would you like to make a profit from margin scammers?

This tactic only works for some setups depending on how the goods are priced. The margin scammer is relying on having the margin skill trained up. Assume they have it at level 5 where the escrow is around 24%. Change the sell price to a bit below that, say 23% of the posted buy order. You will force the scammer into buying these worthless goods and beat them at their own game.

Have fun!

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

#122 - 2013-07-23 00:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
Isn't this fixed as simply as having an indicator on the buy / sell order. One warning whether the dealer actually has at that point in time enough money to cover their end?

Then the buyer actualy has an option to say screw that and move on to a legitimate order?

"warning seller does not have the funds to cover blah blah" or whatever.


You already get that. When you try to sell to it, the order fails, and you're free to move on to the next order.


Aliste Rosenheim wrote:
Oh ok, so this scam cant affect someone who is legitimately trying to sell an item? It only works on a ridiculous "set up" item? If im trying to sell a billion in tritanium to a buy order the transaction will go thru rite? unless they dont have enough money, in which case i'll get back my trit anyway rite?


Your items will never leave your possession through the market without you being paid for them (even if that's just .01 ISK because you made an oopsie).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

#123 - 2013-07-23 04:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
Quote:
You already get that. When you try to sell to it, the order fails, and you're free to move on to the next order.


Gawd I'm confused. I thought the issue was that people who do nothing but attempt to sell something to a market buy order that someone else has set up, still have to pay a fee if it turns out the order the other person set up is fake i.e. not enough money to cover the buy order. On large orders that fee being quite large in itself, while still being left with the product they were attempting to sell to the person who set up the order?

If there's no fee's to pay when it fails then I don't see such a problem with this except annoyance if i was gonna haul something I got at a reasonable price else ware to sell to the fake buyer in the different location.
#124 - 2013-07-23 12:05:51 UTC
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

#125 - 2013-07-23 12:13:14 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


Have a like. I do love when you guys come in to throw in the official position. No matter how many times a player says that something is working as intended, some people hang on like a schnauzer until the blue post appears.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Caldari State
#126 - 2013-07-23 13:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Looser Eto
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


Sorry but this is double standards (to put it in a polite manner) by a long way....

You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics...

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.

Pathetic.
The Initiative.
#127 - 2013-07-23 13:16:46 UTC
Given that we have two greedy players each trying to scam the other, why should CCP intervene on the side of the loser?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Caldari State
#128 - 2013-07-23 13:17:24 UTC
There are people who cheat and scam with their main account and that's fine - it's part of what you describe as the "harsh" Eve world.

Others, on the other hand, involve alts, create and biomass tens of characters in order to succeed in margin trading scams, or ISK doubling or whatever.

This second case is really what I am not fine with. If one singe pilot chooses to scam or AWOX or w/e and live with it, it's an acceptable way of play style or RP lifestyle if you wish. But when one involves a lot different expandable pilots which then proceeds to biomass and start anew like nothing happened only to repeat the same procedure again and again, then excuse me but this is a clear abuse of the the game mechanics and the function of the Eve account.
Vae. Victis.
#129 - 2013-07-23 13:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Looser Eto wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


Sorry but this is double standards (to put it in a polite manner) by a long way....

You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics...

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.

Pathetic.

The only pathetic thing is that you can't understand that it's perfectly valid game play to scam and to be scammed.

When you try to take advantage of someone's "mistake" in the market and in turn get taken advantage of yourself, in EVE we call that Karma... or Tuesday (take your pick).

In either case the person is trying to take advantage of game mechanics. One is just being more clever about it than the other.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Caldari State
#130 - 2013-07-23 13:21:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Given that we have two greedy players each trying to scam the other, why should CCP intervene on the side of the loser?


In my opinion, CCP should intervene if and only if the system gets abused. In all other cases, CCP reps should remain neutral.

In this particular case CCP chose to side with the scammer, who displayed the same level of greed (perhaps even more, considering the amount of effort he put into it) with that of the "victim".

Come one Malcanis... 1+1=2
#131 - 2013-07-23 13:23:27 UTC
Quote:
You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics...


What did I say about schnauzers?

You are right, he did not touch about "abuse" of the game mechanics. He instead gave outright carte blanche that it is not, in fact, abuse of them.

If he had come right out and said "working as intended", it couldn't be more clear.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

#132 - 2013-07-23 13:24:29 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics.

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.
So where's the double standard? It's ok to be greedy and try to scam people for easy profits; it's not ok to whine about when you fail. It's the whining that is the issue, not the attempts to scam.

Just know that greed will sometimes make you miss the obvious and make your attempt blow up in your face. Be greedy and smart, not greedy and stupid.
Sanctuary Pact
#133 - 2013-07-23 13:25:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Given that we have two greedy players each trying to scam the other, why should CCP intervene on the side of the loser?



Because of Falcon!!

Just kidding Big smile
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-07-23 13:25:57 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

The only pathetic thing is that you can't understand that it's perfectly valid game play to scam and to be scammed.

When you try to take advantage of someone's "mistake" in the market and in turn get taken advantage of yourself, in EVE we call that Karma... or Tuesday (take your pick).

In either case the person is trying to take advantage of game mechanics. One is just being more clever about it than the other.


My argument is that the "victim" in our case above did not involve more that one pilots in his/her attempt to make more isk.

The "scammer" did probably involve a handful of alts, and he/she may actually proceed to biomass his/her trading character after a short while to cover the tracks.

Judging by your attitude, I honestly don't believe you'll be able to see the thin line between "ordinary scam" and "multi-account mechanics abuse".
#135 - 2013-07-23 13:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Looser Eto wrote:
My argument is that the "victim" in our case above did not involve more that one pilots in his/her attempt to make more isk.

The "scammer" did probably involve a handful of alts, and he/she may actually proceed to biomass his/her trading character after a short while to cover the tracks.
No. The beauty of the margin scam is that you can do it pretty much all on your own.

Even if it did require multiple people, so what? Have you never watched a scam-based caper movie?
#136 - 2013-07-23 13:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Looser Eto wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


Sorry but this is double standards (to put it in a polite manner) by a long way....

You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics...

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.

Pathetic.


Well, it's a game and so it's built upon certain standards which allow people to do ingame what would reflect poorly on them if they did it in RL.

Of course, that's made on the assumption that everyone playing this game is as mentally sane as everybody else, which is a safe assumption when you're selling Pandas Online, but may not be so sensible when you're selling Antisocial Behavior Online...P

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

ChaosTheory.
#137 - 2013-07-23 13:33:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Then, through my own naivety and greed, I fall for the Margin Trading Scam...


You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.


Have a like. I do love when you guys come in to throw in the official position. No matter how many times a player says that something is working as intended, some people hang on like a schnauzer until the blue post appears.


You think they give up when the blue post appears?

Some people could be drawn and quartered and their last words would be "screw Falcon, I was right" followed by yells of freedom and Alba gu bra or some such.
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-07-23 13:34:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics.

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.
So where's the double standard? It's ok to be greedy and try to scam people for easy profits; it's not ok to whine about when you fail. It's the whining that is the issue, not the attempts to scam.

Just know that greed will sometimes make you miss the obvious and make your attempt blow up in your face. Be greedy and smart, not greedy and stupid.


Hey Tippia, thanks for the awesome skill guide which I've been following through with my main during the last few months.

On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.

You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine because (a) they know they are abusing the game mechanics in the first place, and (b) they can easily biomass their pilots and start a fresh, zero history trader/isk doubler.
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-07-23 13:37:18 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Well, it's a game and so it's built upon certain standards which allow people to do ingame what would reflect poorly on them if they did it in RL.

Of course, that's made on the assumption that everyone playing this game is as mentally sane as everybody else, which is a safe assumption when you're selling Pandas Online, but may not be so sensible when you're selling Antisocial Behavior Online...P


Great point, thanks. That argument settles it for me really.
ChaosTheory.
#140 - 2013-07-23 13:41:50 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
You point out how one player got greedy and lost some isk, while at the same time you do not even touch on how the margin scammer abused the game mechanics.

It's ok for someone to be greedy and risk some isk, but for the people on the other end of the rope who are equally greedy it's "too bad", and they also receive some tutoring from CCP staff.
So where's the double standard? It's ok to be greedy and try to scam people for easy profits; it's not ok to whine about when you fail. It's the whining that is the issue, not the attempts to scam.

Just know that greed will sometimes make you miss the obvious and make your attempt blow up in your face. Be greedy and smart, not greedy and stupid.


Hey Tippia, thanks for the awesome skill guide which I've been following through with my main during the last few months.

On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.

You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine because (a) they know they are abusing the game mechanics in the first place, and (b) they can easily biomass their pilots and start a fresh, zero history trader/isk doubler.


That a imaginary double standard. In other words, it doesn't exist.

As long as a player is playing within the rules, there can be no "abuse", even if the people getting scammed don't understand the rules. It's similar to the IRL concept of "Ignorance being no excuse". A game is about challenge and figuring stuff out, and EVE is no different.



I've fallen for exactly one scam. I sold a Deadspace item on contracts (before such items were available on the market) and didn't realize a zero was missing till to late. I don't get mad at the scammer, I got mad at ME for being in to much of a hurry. Scammers gonna scam, I am the one tasked with looking out for myself.
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