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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Goonswarm Federation
#1061 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:10
Also I'm reporting myself--er, Fix Lag--as of now for character impersonation. And stealing ISK based on impersonation, because I gave him like 1M ISK on the premise that he was in fact myself and clearly characters can't be the same person in this game because you just said so, GM Karidor.
C C P Alliance
#1062 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:11
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Help me understand this then:

I, Abdiel Kavash, run a legit 3rd party business. Over the years I gain the trust of hundreds and a multibillion empire.

CASE 1: A new character, Joe McScammer, completely unaffiliated with me, decides to make some extra money. Joe McScammer convoes a customer of AbdielCorp and claims to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash. The poor mark falls for it and gives Joe McScammer ISK thinking he's sending it to Abdiel Kavash.

In this case, Joe McScammer is guilty of "[using] the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity", and if petitioned by the unsatisfied customer is prone to getting banned.


CASE 2: I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again.

Since different characters are treated as separate entities, is this judged the same as case 1? Is Phill McScammer prone to getting banned for impersonating Abdiel Kavash? I.e. can I get banned for claiming that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash?


I suppose you have read my example, so you can answer that yourself as it is pretty much the same thing with different names.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Can I be banned for telling the truth?


Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.
GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Fidelas Constans
#1063 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:20  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
GM Karidor wrote:
Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


Except that Phill never claimed to be anything he wasn't. Phill didn't claim to be the character Abdiel Kavash, he claimed to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash - which he was. At no point Phill told a lie. Does "impersonation" cover "truthfully stating the nature of a character"?

Thanks for the communication, I never actually expected a GM reply.
Nulli Secunda
#1064 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:22
impersonating a CCP employee should be bannable

anyone who gives his super to chribbo or who makes a rental agreement with The Mittoni deserves to loose his ship and/or ISK

this is just stupid
GRRR Goons
#1065 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:26
GM Karidor wrote:


Let me quote the relevant sentence, the EULA paragraph is not only about sharing, but also usage of names from other players in general:

Quote:

...
No player may use the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity.
...


The "use" in that sentence is not limited to using another players name as a name for a character, it includes the use in chats etc. and always has.


If by "always has" when referring to the use in chats you mean "since this week" then yes, that's entirely true that you cannot claim to be someone else.
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Affirmative.
#1066 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:26  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
GM Karidor wrote:
Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.

Isn't it rather easy for a player to validate these claims by _asking_ the character in question?

I thought the rule on naming was in place, because similar names etc. would not even be recognizable as such. But a character Hans can't be really mixed up with the character Steven on accident.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#1067 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:27
This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Mama bear CCP has to protect baby carebear though I guess. If more policies like this that interrupt the sandbox in an attempt to make the game more forgiving are implemented, you can kiss my subscirptions goodbye.
C C P Alliance
#1068 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:33
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


Except that Phill never claimed to be anything he wasn't. Phill didn't claim to be the character Abdiel Kavash, he claimed to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash - which he was. At no point Phill told a lie. Does "impersonation" cover "truthfully stating the nature of a character"?

Thanks for the communication, I never actually expected a GM reply.


Both characters Phil and Joe used the name Abdiel Kavash to give of the impression they were somehow related to him. The cases are effectively identical.

Yes, with Phil the actual statement of him being an alt is true, but the actual act of the character using the name of Abdiel Kavash does not differ in any capacity at all.

To throw the ball back to you:
In the hypothetical situation that we were to take no action in such cases, you'd be rather annoyed about Joe once you got wind that he's ruining your hard earned reputation, wouldn't you? Given that such characters as Joe usually don't go about wandering in space very often, you'd have no real recourse of hounding him down until the end of time either.
GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
#1069 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:35
Sephira Galamore wrote:
[Isn't it rather easy for a player to validate these claims by _asking_ the character in question?.


ACCORDING TO SENIOR GM KARIDOR IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO DO THAT SO THEREFORE IT MUST BE A BANNABLE OFFENSE AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN EVEN THOUGH IT NEVER WAS UP UNTIL THIS WEEK
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Point Blank Alliance
#1070 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:36  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


Except that Phill never claimed to be anything he wasn't. Phill didn't claim to be the character Abdiel Kavash, he claimed to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash - which he was. At no point Phill told a lie. Does "impersonation" cover "truthfully stating the nature of a character"?

Thanks for the communication, I never actually expected a GM reply.


Both characters Phil and Joe used the name Abdiel Kavash to give of the impression they were somehow related to him. The cases are effectively identical.

Yes, with Phil the actual statement of him being an alt is true, but the actual act of the character using the name of Abdiel Kavash does not differ in any capacity at all.

To throw the ball back to you:
In the hypothetical situation that we were to take no action in such cases, you'd be rather annoyed about Joe once you got wind that he's ruining your hard earned reputation, wouldn't you? Given that such characters as Joe usually don't go about wandering in space very often, you'd have no real recourse of hounding him down until the end of time either.


What if Abdiel Kavash directly confirms that Phill McScammer (his alt) is in fact his alt (e.g. starting a private conversation with the mark using his main and saying "Phill McScammer is my alt")? Does that still qualify as impersonation?
Amarr Empire
#1071 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:39
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Help me understand this then:

I, Abdiel Kavash, run a legit 3rd party business. Over the years I gain the trust of hundreds and a multibillion empire.

CASE 1: A new character, Joe McScammer, completely unaffiliated with me, decides to make some extra money. Joe McScammer convoes a customer of AbdielCorp and claims to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash. The poor mark falls for it and gives Joe McScammer ISK thinking he's sending it to Abdiel Kavash.

In this case, Joe McScammer is guilty of "[using] the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity", and if petitioned by the unsatisfied customer is prone to getting banned.


CASE 2: I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again.

Since different characters are treated as separate entities, is this judged the same as case 1? Is Phill McScammer prone to getting banned for impersonating Abdiel Kavash? I.e. can I get banned for claiming that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash?


I suppose you have read my example, so you can answer that yourself as it is pretty much the same thing with different names.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Can I be banned for telling the truth?


Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


but he never lied, he just scammed someone. the statement he was his alt was true. he never misrepresented himself he just decided to scam someone. if this is the GM's stance then Chribba cant do any business on any of his alts right? because he is impersonating himself to gain their trust. WHAT IF HE DECIDES TO SCAM SOMEONE?!?1? this is why LEGAL AND BINDING CONTRACTS SHOULD NOT BE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION.
Goonswarm Federation
#1072 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:39
GM Karidor wrote:

To throw the ball back to you:
In the hypothetical situation that we were to take no action in such cases, you'd be rather annoyed about Joe once you got wind that he's ruining your hard earned reputation, wouldn't you? Given that such characters as Joe usually don't go about wandering in space very often, you'd have no real recourse of hounding him down until the end of time either.


No, I would as has been common practice now advised others that there are people who are out their to scam them and tell them to always double check. I would have them verify with me that it is in fact an alt or myself. now if as you outlined in an example before, I am scamming people with an alt, I don't deserve their trust now do I.
Goonswarm Federation
#1073 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:42
Since it has probably faded into the background by now I would once again like to bring up the rental example and ask for clarification.

since rental programs are run by alts of players in the owner alliance, would a vengeful person who is denied or kicked out have a case against the people running the alliance, since at some point they most likely will speak on behalf of their other characters? This concerns me the most as it will be the closest to malicious scamming. It will be nearly impossible to ascertain original intent and since they will be using the good name of their recruiting mains they have opened themselves up to all kinds of liability in cases like this. If they are not in danger please use the same clear and coordinated dialogue to let us know just how such cases would be separated and clarified.
#1074 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:42
Who even cares about the alt thing really?

It was NEVER a rule that you couldn't lie about membership in a "group" (whatever "group" is supposed to mean). That point is so blatantly obvious that it invalidates all of this hemming and hawing over edge cases in terms of the need for a complete revision of this entire event from the very beginning (not to mention an internal process of review of how exactly a disaster like this occurred in the first place) . Obviously the new number 8 rule cannot stand and needs to be completely revised. Lying about being someone's alt is an edge case that can dealt with separately.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
#1075 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:43
GM Karidor, are you simply relaying the party line to us, or are you setting the party line?
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Gallente Federation
#1076 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:45
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


Except that Phill never claimed to be anything he wasn't. Phill didn't claim to be the character Abdiel Kavash, he claimed to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash - which he was. At no point Phill told a lie. Does "impersonation" cover "truthfully stating the nature of a character"?

Thanks for the communication, I never actually expected a GM reply.


Both characters Phil and Joe used the name Abdiel Kavash to give of the impression they were somehow related to him. The cases are effectively identical.

Yes, with Phil the actual statement of him being an alt is true, but the actual act of the character using the name of Abdiel Kavash does not differ in any capacity at all.

To throw the ball back to you:
In the hypothetical situation that we were to take no action in such cases, you'd be rather annoyed about Joe once you got wind that he's ruining your hard earned reputation, wouldn't you? Given that such characters as Joe usually don't go about wandering in space very often, you'd have no real recourse of hounding him down until the end of time either.

Actually no, I'd put the fault for Joe's mark right where it belongs, on Joe's mark. The only reason I (as Abdiel) would be mad is if I had Phill ready to go to do the same and Joe beat me to it, but then Joe and I are that point in competition over exploiting Abdiel's name and all is fair game.

Also as Abdiel I'd try to set up the situation as much as possible so that at worst I end up with a legit business deal thus increasing my rep and preping the next potential mark.
C C P Alliance
#1077 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:45
Milton Middleson wrote:

What if Abdiel Kavash directly confirms that Phill McScammer (his alt) is in fact his alt (e.g. starting a private conversation with the mark using his main and saying "Phill McScammer is my alt")? Does that still qualify as impersonation?


Why would you even bother with the alt in that situation? You can just do whatever you need to do with Abdiel Kavash then. The character Phil technically still impersonates Abdiel.
GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
#1078 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:49
If an isk doubler in Jita uses my name in local claiming he doubled my isk, could i petition as he's misrepresenting me as a member of a group i'm not in (namely someone that actually got isk doubled)?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
#1079 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:49
First brutally honest feedback. I'll word it as politely as possible without sacrificing honesty.

This is the biggest knife in the heart of EVE's gameplay and culture of 'spies and deception are everywhere' since the Incarna debacle. I have no confidence in the ability of the people behind this change to understand EVE, let alone implement reasonable policies or rules.

It appears that any deceptive behaviour at all that involves a declaration that "X is my alt" or "I am working in conjunction with X" is against the rules, and by extension, and outsourcing of core activities of a corporation, alliance or 'entity' now has CCP enforcing the honesty of such dealings.

For instance, under the new rules Goonswarm Federation retain the CCP endorsed right to scam people interested in renting space from them. However, in the unlikely situation that Goonswarm were to appoint me (a non-member of the alliance) as a third party to act on their behalf in rental deals, I would not be allowed to scam and and deliberate scamming by me of renters would be an account-ban offence. (A similar situation would occur if I were to collude with a 'renter' that intended to not pay but instead use their 'rented space' as a staging ground to attack GSF interests).

Particularly relevant to sovereign nullsec is that one of the major vectors for inserting spies into hostile entities, applying to multiple corps saying "I am XYZ's alt", fishing for one that is not vigilant enough to API verify this information, is no longer legal.

What you should be doing is the following:

- Ban names that are deceptively close to existing character, corporation or alliance names. GM discretion applies when it's unclear (Currln Trading is clearly deceptively close to Currin Trading; while 'Avengers of the South' would not be deceptively close to 'Southern Avengers')
- Ban deceptive conduct carried out on CCP hosted websites other than the official EVE forums
- Change the font so that capital 'o' and 'zero' look more different ingame than the presently do. Likewise for capital 'i' and lower case 'l'.
- Remove all reference to 'entities'. The game client recognises corporations and alliances. It doesn't recognise coalitions, the New Order or other such 'entities'.
- Explicitly allow players to lie about their affiliation to in-game corporations and alliances and to other characters, as long as they do not do so in ways that 'trick' the in-game methods for checking this information. Disallowed would be misuse of CCP websites and any form of API falsification. (Providing information and saying 'this is what my API says' should be fine; altering what the API actually says should be a banhammer).
Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com.
No Response
#1080 Posted: 2013.09.13 01:50
GM Karidor wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:

What if Abdiel Kavash directly confirms that Phill McScammer (his alt) is in fact his alt (e.g. starting a private conversation with the mark using his main and saying "Phill McScammer is my alt")? Does that still qualify as impersonation?


Why would you even bother with the alt in that situation? You can just do whatever you need to do with Abdiel Kavash then. The character Phil technically still impersonates Abdiel.


I have multiple alts, and I tend to just reply to stuff in chat on whoever's client I look at first. Under your strict interpretation of the rules, then it looks to me like if someone felt malicious and reported me for saying something on Anya or Cat instead of Erasmus, then I'd get punished for it, because I am claiming to be myself. This is rather obviously a pretty stupid situation.

"To throw the ball back to you: In the hypothetical situation that we were to take no action in such cases, you'd be rather annoyed about Joe once you got wind that he's ruining your hard earned reputation, wouldn't you? Given that such characters as Joe usually don't go about wandering in space very often, you'd have no real recourse of hounding him down until the end of time either."

Number one, it's perfectly possible to punish cases where it's someone else claiming to be you without punishing cases where it is YOU claiming to be you. Number two, I have never, ever seen any kind of punishment for lying about who you are, with the exception of using a misleading name. Yes, you might be pissed about someone else scamming by claiming to be you, but you can start warning people, and if someone is silly enough to fall for this the story has always been "Tough *******, learn from it. That's how Eve is"

you even have advertising based around that idea.
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