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Brainstorm: How to make Eve bigger then WoW ?

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Bloodline.
#21 Posted: 2013.09.13 17:27
supernova ranger wrote:
Including the player base from dust + Eve + possible Valkyrie

Assume that it is possible when answering.

How does one do this? What would eve need? What should eve not do to achieve this?

I have thoughts but ill leave then till later if this thread gets any traction... For the moment I'm just curious as to what people think about it atm.


You would need to get rid of everything that eve is.. the long term goals, nonconsentual pvp, concord being reactionary etc and make it a themepark pve game, which of course would drive out just about every current player. Nothing would explode so the industrialists and marketeers would not have a reason to play and eve would die.
So ya, wow is wow and eve is eve. Please do not make one in to the other. SOE tried that with SWG and look where it got them.
#22 Posted: 2013.09.13 17:50  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
supernova ranger wrote:
well the larger the player base the greater the income and like wise the larger the budget, I would hope that'd accelerate eve evolution?



That's not how niche games work. they collect players looking for something they can't find elsewhere. Many eve players make their home hear because ccp does not pander to common interests. We can get that in many other games.

To get bigger than wow eve wuld have to steal players from wow or appeal to people who like the wow concept. Generally when games do this it backfires. many games at some point went to varying levels of wow clone to draw in players....and their ship did not come in. These be the vast numbers of f2p with MT/p2w who instead of the consistent the $15 a month they made at release now hope enough p2w to cover the freeloaders expenses to keep up the game servers and such..
#23 Posted: 2013.09.13 17:55
To attract the type of player like the ones WoW has, it is not difficult.
At least, not difficult to explain.

You need to give them the candy that attracts them, and keeps them coming back.

WoW has an art style, to begin with, that exaggerates physical qualities. Armor and weapons, along with other gear, are all thicker and more cumbersome, while at the same time apparently very light.
The stuff is either costume style styrofoam, or all made in a place where object density is far less.
(Ever see the armor plates? If those were made from comparable metals on earth they would be too heavy to move around with, let alone enter combat with)

Why is this art style a factor?
It lets the player detach themselves from reality, and immerse themselves in the game more fully.
Nothing in reality matches a game item well enough to be a reminder that it is a game.

It needs boots on the ground.
Keep the space side of EVE unchanged, but let people go down to the planet surfaces in Empire space, for their theme park experiences.
Want to travel to a different world? Invest in a clone, and have a pilot travel it to the destination. If the clone is lost in transit, the original is still intact and unharmed.
Items could be purchased at the destination, not needing to be carried or risked unless that was deliberately wanted.

Why could this be interesting?
The planet's theme park nature can be deliberate.
We can have fantasy worlds, cheesey sci-fi worlds inspired by various stories, horror themed worlds, you name it.

And the pilots link them all together, as well as have the option to visit them as well.

EVE could obsolete every other game MMO, doing this the right way.
We have all these worlds already.
Ad-Astra
#24 Posted: 2013.09.13 18:31
I didn't say I wanted WoW players in particluar, I just wanted more players in general... I never have and never will play WoW for a reason (not saying I have anything against those that do)

I want ccp to get more money because if they had more, they could do more so that maybe some of the features in the idea generation stage comes out in 9 years instead of 10 :P

I'm thinking turn based strategy game or online trading cards... Geez, if something like pogs can take off - there must be something "silly" or even somewhat serious that Eve can do to pull a profit...

Besides, every endeavor they take serves as advertisement to draw in a bigger crowd... especially if you start interfacing with stores like walmart, bestbuy, shoppers exc. (im in Canada)
#25 Posted: 2013.09.13 18:43
supernova ranger wrote:
I didn't say I wanted WoW players in particluar, I just wanted more players in general... I never have and never will play WoW for a reason (not saying I have anything against those that do)

I want ccp to get more money because if they had more, they could do more so that maybe some of the features in the idea generation stage comes out in 9 years instead of 10 :P

I'm thinking turn based strategy game or online trading cards... Geez, if something like pogs can take off - there must be something "silly" or even somewhat serious that Eve can do to pull a profit...

Besides, every endeavor they take serves as advertisement to draw in a bigger crowd... especially if you start interfacing with stores like walmart, bestbuy, shoppers exc. (im in Canada)

I certainly did not say wow players specifically either.

But that type of player is both social, as well as seeking to escape reality, and EVE is not as strong on either front.

EVE has more in common with remote controlled toys than social gaming, for the most part.
Heck, these forums are the most social aspect of EVE.
Templis CALSF
#26 Posted: 2013.09.13 18:49
Demica Diaz wrote:
I do not think it is possible anymore. Even if you come up with EVE 2 with all modern mmo quality of life features, mmo genre in itself seems to be losing its grasp. Atm MOBA games seem to be pulling people with quite staggering numbers: "As of July 2013, LoL had 32 million active monthly users and Dota 2 had 4.8 million active monthly players, while Heroes of Newerth had 2 million.".

32 million LoLers, I dont think Blizzard reached even half way to that with "most popular and successful mmo of all time.".

Unless CCP comes with totally new, drasting and mindblowing concept of mmo genre that is never seen before, I dont think it will pass over WoW player base. Not because of game but because genre is becoming bit "meh".

PS: and no, I think EVE is only mmo with time based skill learning.


LOL = league of legends?

32 million people play that garbage? LOL

See what I did there?
Amarr Empire
#27 Posted: 2013.09.13 20:27
supernova ranger wrote:
well the larger the player base the greater the income and like wise the larger the budget, I would hope that'd accelerate eve evolution?

so they can spend more money on a game that we DONT like? yeah sounds a good trade...
next eve expansion would be Clusters of Pandoria with ******** black white panda looking ships which all are superior to the current ones thx but no
#28 Posted: 2013.09.13 20:32
Hm... live longer then WoW (will be done soon... ish Blink), make WiS happen, include DUST and Valkyrie all into one unified game... make that game VR capable... AND do all that in next 10 years!

...easy, really. Blink
"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!"
Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
#29 Posted: 2013.09.13 20:38
Naomi Knight wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
well the larger the player base the greater the income and like wise the larger the budget, I would hope that'd accelerate eve evolution?

so they can spend more money on a game that we DONT like? yeah sounds a good trade...
next eve expansion would be Clusters of Pandoria with ******** black white panda looking ships which all are superior to the current ones thx but no

Learning from the mistakes of others is a quality we should be seeking, especially with what you pointed out.

I shudder to consider how many mistakes fantasy mmos have inflicted, just for short term profits....
Sleeper Social Club
#30 Posted: 2013.09.13 20:55
Mole Guy wrote:
to be bigger than wow, we would need to get rid of having to "earn" money, get rid of loosing ships from pvp and make it towhere its more a game and not a simulation.
This is sort of the point of it right here. If Eve were to grow as large as Wow, CCP would be saddled with problems Blizzard faced and is facing now: namely, their player base grew because Blizzard started catering toward "casual" players, which is just another way of saying players who aren't really invested in the game and who will take the necessary steps to grow (as players) and master the game. So, as the numbers surged with these "casuals," Blizzard became beholden to them, crying out for ever more easy-mode ways to play, and Blizzard was happy--obliged to respond in kind--so they wouldn't lose all these "casuals" who really didn't want to stick around for the game if it wasn't "easy-mode."

So what do you end up today with, then? A Wow that is five million--FIVE MILLION--subscribers down from its height during Wow's Wrath of the Lich King expansion. It's latest expansion introduced a Blizzard-themed Pokemon and playable Panda bears. Blizzard, wanting to hang on to its dwindling player base of "easy-or-flee" "casuals" introduced a game mode that automatically groups you with 24 other "casual" players so that you could still "kill the dragon" but where you essentially could be the worst player and still get carried along and "succeed" in fights. Of the 25 players required, it only takes about 10 to carry the raid, and you can "stand in the fire" or otherwise have very, VERY little situational awareness and skill at the game and still "succeed" and be handed your "epic" loot.

What's more, all the casual-pandering game modes introduced utterly and completely stripped the social aspect of the game. Players no longer have to even communicate with one another, nevermind having the "chore" to seek out others to group up with, form guilds, and foster friendships. There's little travel in the "world of Azeroth" anymore, too, as what was once required if you wished to enter a dungeon somewhere in the world--to define it and shape it as an actual virtual world--is replaced by instant travel of you and your 24 random "friends" to the dungeon so you can, again, "kill the dragon."

The side effects of this: the hardcore players--the very ones who stuck around to build Wow--were marginalized as the voices of the "casual" crowd grew. Hardcore players, indeed many a typical player of Eve, enjoy challenge and adversity, overcoming it and being justly rewarded. In Eve, it comes from deception, piloting skill, fitting knowledge, game mechanic understanding, etc. But a typical "casual" doesn't want to do any of this. They want to click "join Incursion" or "Faction Warfare battle" and it happens. They want very little risk of their assets actually blowing up, since if that's the case, they may as well leave, instead of being rewarded for their skill. Entitlement sentiment runs rampant on Blizzard's forums. And in response, Blizzard's community managers push out the company-line "spin" for the masses to devour. Hardcore players are silenced by backlash and QQ if they suggest keeping a feature that defined Wow, such as rewarding the best players with the best gear or best achievements. Casuals think that simply by paying for the game, they're entitled to everything the game has to offer, regardless of skill level or understanding of it. I'm not sure when gamers became this way, since I played games that required actual skill to succeed at and see the end, "beat" the game and feel a sense of accomplishment.

If Eve were to grow like Wow, we the players would lose our voice and our power to shape the universe the way us (typically hardcore) players want it. The 500,000 of us would be supplanted by 9.5 million "casuals" who'd want high sec to be a place where it would be impossible for any loss. Weapons would be disabled in high sec, since when you live in peace, there's no need for weapons, am I right? I'm sure that desire to "see the game" would eventually spill over into null sec, and casuals would demand a way to "see" null sec, too, since "why should only null sec get the best sanctums or asteroids?" Pvp would move into some sort of consensual monster, where someone would have to stay in nullsec for an hour or so before they became a "valid" target. Eve would be put on easy mode, and CCP would rake in the profits Blizzard has seen, yes, but at the cost of their souls.

I'd much rather a smaller Eve with a more responsive Dev team. I'd take a Dev team that's real and honest; a team that will tell us how it is, show their emotion, and sometimes say too much. That sort of Dev team shows me that they're passionate about their product, and they want the best for it. That shows me a Dev team that still dreams of what can be and works to make it happen. And I'll take a smaller player base of dedicated players wanting to keep the game the same as what all drew us in. The hardcore nature of Eve forced us to talk to others. It forced us to understand that our actions have consequence and meaning. We found corporations that took us in, showed us the ropes, and let us grow. We found corps that matched our play styles and corps that we shared our experiences with. When you're all in the same boat, the universe isn't nearly as scary as facing it alone, and that's the true success of Eve. And that's why I wouldn't change a thing.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.

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#31 Posted: 2013.09.13 21:08
That is exactly why I specified keep the space game unchanged.

We never want to change this core of EVE to cater to WoW style gaming.

BUT, as they are already demonstrating with DUST, a game that is linked but not overlapping is quite possible.
Add this to the eventual WiS additions, and the planets under the stations suddenly have a purpose besides PI.

Our universe simply gets bigger, and the surface get's instanced as needed.

EVE players lose nothing.
Any development will be done outside of the devs and resources needed for EVE, so all we will see is eventually an invite, as paying players, to come on down and try it.

Heck, this could be free to play like DUST is, maybe even using micro transactions for convenience items.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#32 Posted: 2013.09.13 21:36
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
to be bigger than wow, we would need to get rid of having to "earn" money, get rid of loosing ships from pvp and make it towhere its more a game and not a simulation.
This is sort of the point of it right here. If Eve were to grow as large as Wow, CCP would be saddled with problems Blizzard faced and is facing now: namely, their player base grew because Blizzard started catering toward "casual" players, which is just another way of saying players who aren't really invested in the game and who will take the necessary steps to grow (as players) and master the game. So, as the numbers surged with these "casuals," Blizzard became beholden to them, crying out for ever more easy-mode ways to play, and Blizzard was happy--obliged to respond in kind--so they wouldn't lose all these "casuals" who really didn't want to stick around for the game if it wasn't "easy-mode."

So what do you end up today with, then? A Wow that is five million--FIVE MILLION--subscribers down from its height during Wow's Wrath of the Lich King expansion. It's latest expansion introduced a Blizzard-themed Pokemon and playable Panda bears. Blizzard, wanting to hang on to its dwindling player base of "easy-or-flee" "casuals" introduced a game mode that automatically groups you with 24 other "casual" players so that you could still "kill the dragon" but where you essentially could be the worst player and still get carried along and "succeed" in fights. Of the 25 players required, it only takes about 10 to carry the raid, and you can "stand in the fire" or otherwise have very, VERY little situational awareness and skill at the game and still "succeed" and be handed your "epic" loot.

What's more, all the casual-pandering game modes introduced utterly and completely stripped the social aspect of the game. Players no longer have to even communicate with one another, nevermind having the "chore" to seek out others to group up with, form guilds, and foster friendships. There's little travel in the "world of Azeroth" anymore, too, as what was once required if you wished to enter a dungeon somewhere in the world--to define it and shape it as an actual virtual world--is replaced by instant travel of you and your 24 random "friends" to the dungeon so you can, again, "kill the dragon."

The side effects of this: the hardcore players--the very ones who stuck around to build Wow--were marginalized as the voices of the "casual" crowd grew. Hardcore players, indeed many a typical player of Eve, enjoy challenge and adversity, overcoming it and being justly rewarded. In Eve, it comes from deception, piloting skill, fitting knowledge, game mechanic understanding, etc. But a typical "casual" doesn't want to do any of this. They want to click "join Incursion" or "Faction Warfare battle" and it happens. They want very little risk of their assets actually blowing up, since if that's the case, they may as well leave, instead of being rewarded for their skill. Entitlement sentiment runs rampant on Blizzard's forums. And in response, Blizzard's community managers push out the company-line "spin" for the masses to devour. Hardcore players are silenced by backlash and QQ if they suggest keeping a feature that defined Wow, such as rewarding the best players with the best gear or best achievements. Casuals think that simply by paying for the game, they're entitled to everything the game has to offer, regardless of skill level or understanding of it. I'm not sure when gamers became this way, since I played games that required actual skill to succeed at and see the end, "beat" the game and feel a sense of accomplishment.

If Eve were to grow like Wow, we the players would lose our voice and our power to shape the universe the way us (typically hardcore) players want it. The 500,000 of us would be supplanted by 9.5 million "casuals" who'd want high sec to be a place where it would be impossible for any loss. Weapons would be disabled in high sec, since when you live in peace, there's no need for weapons, am I right? I'm sure that desire to "see the game" would eventually spill over into null sec, and casuals would demand a way to "see" null sec, too, since "why should only null sec get the best sanctums or asteroids?" Pvp would move into some sort of consensual monster, where someone would have to stay in nullsec for an hour or so before they became a "valid" target. Eve would be put on easy mode, and CCP would rake in the profits Blizzard has seen, yes, but at the cost of their souls.

I'd much rather a smaller Eve with a more responsive Dev team. I'd take a Dev team that's real and honest; a team that will tell us how it is, show their emotion, and sometimes say too much. That sort of Dev team shows me that they're passionate about their product, and they want the best for it. That shows me a Dev team that still dreams of what can be and works to make it happen. And I'll take a smaller player base of dedicated players wanting to keep the game the same as what all drew us in. The hardcore nature of Eve forced us to talk to others. It forced us to understand that our actions have consequence and meaning. We found corporations that took us in, showed us the ropes, and let us grow. We found corps that matched our play styles and corps that we shared our experiences with. When you're all in the same boat, the universe isn't nearly as scary as facing it alone, and that's the true success of Eve. And that's why I wouldn't change a thing.


You don't think though that any game company in their right mind would trade 500k hardcore players for a few million casual players in a heartbeat as long as they were able to do it in a sustainable context?
#33 Posted: 2013.09.13 21:58  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Pinky Feldman wrote:
You don't think though that any game company in their right mind would trade 500k hardcore players for a few million casual players in a heartbeat as long as they were able to do it in a sustainable context?

Think again... hardcore players are not as easily scared away as casual players are being gained... WoW hardcore gamers did hang around long after the game was dumbed down beyond recognition.

Besides: EVE is quite a unique game compared to WoW... if CCP doesn't pull stunts like the NeX store cash grab, they could get away with much before they really would start loosing the hardcore crowd, and still win many new casual players.
"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!"
Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Sleeper Social Club
#34 Posted: 2013.09.13 22:37  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Also, eve is fundamentally different from WOW. EVE can support 5 million players without catering to specific users because users develop the content. WOW has introduced pokemon and pandas and all sorts of other **** to keep people entertained. 5 million eve players can keep themselves entertained without CCP being involved. This is completely evident by WOW's now unplayed original end game content. No one bothers with those old instances and simply rushes to the new content. A perfect example of this is that they now offer you a free level 90 character if you reactivate. Why? Because there's no new content at any level before that.

THAT is why EVE will never be WOW. There is a fundamentally different form of gameplay, and content creation. It's not casual vs hardcore, there are plenty of casual EVE players.

In wow, once you've done it all, you've no reason to sign in. In EVE, things are always changing because CCP has in effect 50,000-5 million (hypothetical) devs making content at any given point.
Gallente Federation
#35 Posted: 2013.09.13 22:38
Wait 5 years.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#36 Posted: 2013.09.13 22:41
My teenage daughter likes making characters in eve. Except that there is not enough fashion options. She does the same thing in Sims 3 but she likes the modern non cartoonish eve characters.

My son (also teenager) wants to blow things up together with his friends. He likes warframe which has a level of investment and being able to lead a group of people and direct them.

There is scope to still broaden the social and pvp environments of the game without impacting the core game. They want to earn status not just isk, they want to look cool and not just in their captains quarters on their own, and they want to blow stuff up (eve does this relatively well, but perhaps more focus on more engaging group pve content in faction war could further accelerate this for casual gamers, whilst providing more content for the seasoned and... less pve oriented player as well).
#37 Posted: 2013.09.13 22:41  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
PinkKnife wrote:
THAT is why EVE will never be WOW. There is a fundamentally different form of gameplay, and content creation. It's not casual vs hardcore, there are plenty of casual EVE players.

True, every new addition to EVE presents new opportunity and truely expands the game, not introduces content that is "consumed" in a few days and then forgotten.

@ edeity: Exactly, well put! That's the right way to make EVE the game for future generations and veterans alike... a trait no other MMO could ever be able to achieve that easily.
"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!"
Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Ad-Astra
#38 Posted: 2013.09.13 22:52  |  Edited by: supernova ranger
I'm with everyone here that's telling ccp to keep quality a top priority and not cater to casual players like WoW did 100%

I'm more so focused on things to add that draw in a larger crowd

I don't think kongregate and mobile games are to be taken lightly

Like a 2D drilling game, someone sets up a PI drill and then releases contracts where people access it through a game on kongregate (NOM NOM NOM, I got a GEM! - you get isk to buy new gear and eve player gets gem - SIMPLIFIED)

There is little monster thingys you see at best buy where the kids put them on a device which uploads their unique code and lets them battle it out over the net... bit involved but it could be done with trading cards

Tower defense and games are popular...

Strategy games could be over the net for a twist, defend and attack from stations with various viruses and anti-viruses or have people fight over lunar bases with each moon being a different server
Ad-Astra
#39 Posted: 2013.09.13 23:01  |  Edited by: supernova ranger
On the other hand if ccp ever finishes station environments... For an "typical" mmo feel...

Each character could lay traps a push, pull, damage over time, stun, instant damage - you have to spot them by eye and this is how players fight, be it against npcs or players (low-sec and below stations) and starts after they leave their chambers

if you die, you get an isk penalty or damage to items you have on you which u have to repair

You can find salvage and complete tasks to acquire items used at a crafting bench to improve your character
#40 Posted: 2013.09.13 23:06  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Yup, infinite possibilities... wasn't there even a strategy game planned that could be played in bars?

As far as FPS combat goes: Not sure if that should be the focus of WiS... not at first, at least. Stations/corp offices and bars could just as well be social areas only, for starters.
"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!"
Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
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