EVE Information Portal

 
^ Back to top
 

Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

Jump to first DEV post
Author
Amarr Empire
#921 Posted: 2013.10.18 19:45
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?


Goons quite EVE all the time, man...

... and then resub for the next sov war.


It's not their depart, but the threatening and the sweet tears what matters


*whew* We almost had a full page without a "goon tears" post. Thanks for coming through, brosef.
Goonswarm Federation
#922 Posted: 2013.10.18 19:48
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!

Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...

There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.

tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.


D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?

The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.


Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game.

Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.


Well, you obviously don't understand the griefer. Knowing you are inflicting damage to somebody you couldn't harm any other way is SWEET


If the only way you can harm people is by dropping structures and logging out then you probably should never have bothered logging in in the first place. Hope this helps.

Christ, even AFK cloakers have to come back to the keyboard to inflict their damage...
Amarr Empire
#923 Posted: 2013.10.18 19:49
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.


Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else?

Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic.

This has both.


I agree, fire and forget is bad.
So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons.


The existence of one bad mechanic does not justify adding two more on top of it.

We also know that, despite their constant attempts to change it, they are pretty much stuck with POS'es as they exist already. The guys who coded them left CCP a long time ago, and did not leave notes. I believe that there's a blue post to that effect floating around somewhere.


Who could have imagined that the shop that thinks untrustworthy APIs are a good idea would have a bunch of unmaintainable code?
Tactical Narcotics Team
#924 Posted: 2013.10.18 19:53
Ganthrithor wrote:

Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE.


But isn't that our motto in the first place? "The CFC: We're Bad at EVE."
Surely You're Joking
#925 Posted: 2013.10.18 19:54  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Ganthrithor wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!

Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...

There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.

tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.


D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?

The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.


Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game.

Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.


If you don't wish to surrender your moon goo profits then you can check for siphons. It's not that hard, you see, there is this wonderful thing called "D-Scan" and "Probes" that help you find them, and a POS mod called a "gun" that will destroy them.

ಠ_ಠ

There shouldn't be an almost unchallenged passive income, now there isn't.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Surely You're Joking
#926 Posted: 2013.10.18 20:00  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Ganthrithor wrote:
Oh look, I missed another gem of an edit:

M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Johny Tyler wrote:
How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?

I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...

Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...

I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.

Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve.


You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically...


POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me.
If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon Smile


Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE.


The Goon comment was based on the fact that Goons love to talk about how bad they are at EVE. Not a personal attack of any kind since personal attacks are a sign of weakness and lack of reasonable rebuttals.

The reason for my reply was the fact that you felt the need to add "It's doable, technically..." as if it were somehow hard. Which, quite frankly, it isn't.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
#927 Posted: 2013.10.18 20:34  |  Edited by: freedamack
This is in my humble opinion a "double purpose" feature.

First to burn out the logistic staff of larger entities and second to force smaller homogeneous corporations out of the market. While for large entities checking reaction towers becomes no way less cumbersome it is at least in theory possible. "Small independent" corporations or more important corps of the same timezone will have little chance defending their (reaction-)assets for about ~15h+/day. Unless of course they have a high enough number of students or unemployed in their roster that feel happy about this job.

Ah there is also the small part about making people hurt others. Sad things are going to happen.
#928 Posted: 2013.10.18 21:12  |  Edited by: Ilaron
I was really excited about this feature when I first heard about the general idea but the details leave me pretty dissappointed.

One of the things that I've a long wished for is a way to mess with someone else's infrastructure in a way that forced them to respond but was less of a blobby grinding timer fest than actual structure destroying. The idea of pulling a "POS heist" is actually what I had in my mind as an idea.

In my mind every station would have a specific window of time that they were vulnerable to being stolen from. The POS owner could set this up so that it always occurred in his or her time zone. If anyone started the heist event (in the mechanic it would be anchoring the siphoning module) a notification would go out to the POS owner and shortly afterward moon goo would begin transferring to the siphon unit. A lot of moon goo. Enough so you would want haulers to start shuttling it to safety continuously. Enough that if you ignore it, you're basically running the station for the thieves. So now you're in a situation where you've anchored the siphon unit to the POS. The "alarm has been sounded" and you are trying to run the goods to a station and then get back to make another trip. The POS owners/defenders are probably trying to some combination of three things 1) Get some POS gunners to the POS. 2) Form a fleet to stomp you. 3) Intercept your hauler. Add to this the fact that, in my version of events, the siphon unit is expensive enough that losing it would be a big enough deal that you would really try to hang around to defend while it unanchors and you've got a pretty interesting situation. An expensive siphon would also make the "stakes" more even. Perhaps the wreck could also somehow be valuable enough that an unsuccessful heist would result in isk going from thieves to station owners. Plus, I really want someone to think they have enough time for "one more run" before the hammer drops and be wrong. I think this would also give small gangs a reason to interact with structures and might even get more people out messing with much larger entities.

Instead, what we are getting is a throw-away deployable to mess with inattentive POS owners. The strategy is clearly to drop a ton of these and see who doesn't notice it. It's going to be annoying for POS owners but generate very few fights. People are going to just sneak around your space shitting them out and then, later, you will have to go weed them out. Mostly going to be a hassle for everyone and I'm not sure what is a good place to put the cost of the siphon unit vs the expected return such that people will bother to do it at all but they will not be everywhere. I suspect it's going to end up being something with a negative expected return and that 0.0 blocs do it en mas to stress out their enemies logistics. Perfect, just what this game needs.

At this point, I'm wondering how this supposed to actually be fun?
#929 Posted: 2013.10.18 21:28  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Winter Expansion new ship request
Pandemic Legion
#930 Posted: 2013.10.18 21:52
The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified? Aren't there other ways you can help out smaller playergroups without messing with moon mining?

(Hint: It's not easy to farm deep nullsec moons if your supply chain is being disrupted.)
Gentlemen's Agreement
#931 Posted: 2013.10.18 21:52
MeBiatch wrote:
i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur.


How can you monitor a POS for syphons when you are blind?
#932 Posted: 2013.10.18 22:04
While even coming from my fingertips, this idea is so stupid I want to melt myself for saying it: Siphon yourself.

I'm not joking. Get small guns and put them out around your pos, and syphon every last drop out. Greifers dont get an advantage to putting more down, you get more storage (the more siphons you add, the more storage you get) and you own the syphons. Insert bubbles around your pos, and no one can steal your stuff without incredible resolve (assumming blues dont steal, your pos kills any idiot haulers taking your goo, and interdictors who try to fast steal are gonna spend hours flying back and forth).

Rubicon: Because we can.
#933 Posted: 2013.10.18 22:13
Aryth wrote:
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.

The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.

Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.


nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...
Surely You're Joking
#934 Posted: 2013.10.18 22:16
Ereshgikal wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur.


How can you monitor a POS for syphons when you are blind?


I laughed, I don't even know who Bea Arthur is, but I laughed.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
#935 Posted: 2013.10.18 22:44
EI Digin wrote:
The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified?

AHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAHAHAhahaahha
HAHAHAHHAAAAHHAAAHAHAahahahahha...
*gasp*
*wheeze*
Oh man....that was good....

Yeah no, it was such a good mechanic it was listed as one of the most problematic aspects of eve in more CSM minutes and notes than I would care to count for years on end.

It was so fair and balanced that it had to be nerfed repeatedly, and entire new mechanics (alchemy) had to be created around it.

Nice try, and enjoy the new competition. Twisted
#936 Posted: 2013.10.18 23:02
Old Man Sam wrote:
While even coming from my fingertips, this idea is so stupid I want to melt myself for saying it: Siphon yourself.

I'm not joking. Get small guns and put them out around your pos, and syphon every last drop out. Greifers dont get an advantage to putting more down, you get more storage (the more siphons you add, the more storage you get) and you own the syphons. Insert bubbles around your pos, and no one can steal your stuff without incredible resolve (assumming blues dont steal, your pos kills any idiot haulers taking your goo, and interdictors who try to fast steal are gonna spend hours flying back and forth).

Rubicon: Because we can.

50km of bubbles? Or just preventing people from taking it out of "your" siphon?

Also, you lose 20% of what is siphoned into the air .... which is ok i guess.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.

Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Special Circumstances Alliance
#937 Posted: 2013.10.18 23:02
mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


By allowing two different strategies of siphon placement (20% interdiction vs steal resources) the mechanic has greater depth than your appeal to tilde tilde tilde honourable space combat tilde tilde tilde.
Amarr Empire
#938 Posted: 2013.10.18 23:02
Harry Forever wrote:

nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...


Ah, good, there we g--oh wait, this one doesn't count. Can we get someone else to come up with a "goon tears" post for this page please? Harry Forever says "goon tears" to alarm clocks, ringing phones, and barking dogs.
#939 Posted: 2013.10.18 23:08  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...


Ah, good, there we g--oh wait, this one doesn't count. Can we get someone else to come up with a "goon tears" post for this page please? Harry Forever says "goon tears" to alarm clocks, ringing phones, and barking dogs.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Every time a goon cries in this thread, Chuck Norris adopts an animal-shelter kitten. Please continue crying, and cry gratuitously. Together we can prevent a tragedy.
Goonswarm Federation
#940 Posted: 2013.10.18 23:09
Harry Forever wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.

The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.

Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.


nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...

Ah Harry Forever, confusing our tears of mirth with bitter tears. CCP is going to hand everyone the greatist griefing tool EVE has seen since remote doomsdays, and he thinks we are crying bitter tears. Seriously it's like we are Cassandra, blessed with the power of prophecy, yet cursed with no one believing our prophecy.
"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves."
The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Forum Jump