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Are you satisfied with the final Hybrid re-balance?

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Gallente Federation
#61 Posted: 2011.11.17 22:56
Hungry Eyes wrote:
youre completely wrong about the Deimos, and i dont have to justify myself to you, and "prove" that i was testing as well.

the Deimos does a pithy ~300dps with antimatter in a full rack of 200's at about 15-20km, with next to no tank, and a crapload of tracking and damage mods. u have any idea how easily a shield-tanked Cynabal tears up a rail Deimos? u wanna compare it to the pulse Zealot? dont even try noob.

what have you been testing, im just curious? did you actually test any of these ships against their Minnie and Amarr counterparts? against the Drake? the Deimos is ok only in your fantasies. the Talos is the shittiest tier 3 BC, and while the Naga might be "ok", large rails dont even compare to mega pulses (with scorch), arties, and even large AC's at 70km (LAWL). stop spreading misinformation.


The Deimos actually is Ok with current Gallente buffs. It finally has the room to fit what needs to actually function in a PVP HAC role.

The Kadeshi
#62 Posted: 2011.11.17 22:58
+1 for sure

lots more fun now glent ships are
#63 Posted: 2011.11.17 23:12
I really don't see how CCP can do more without running the risk of really unbalancing the game going the other direction, making hybrids TOO powerful. Maybe more will need to be done in the future to futher buff hybrids, but only time will tell.

In the meantime, I've dusted off my Vindicator and Vigilant, (and my Rokh), and I'm ready to own.
#64 Posted: 2011.11.18 00:06
Well personally i think if they switched TE stats and nerfed scorch a tad* the problems would be less severe.

so switch TE from 15% optimal and 30% falloff to 30% optimal and 15% falloff, then nerf scorch a bit would be just fine with me :)
#65 Posted: 2011.11.18 00:33
After years of waiting for this, I just want to see how it will play out in the real sandbox of tranquillity before passing full judgement.

It looks good so far.
Gallente Federation
#66 Posted: 2011.11.18 02:51  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Corina Jarr wrote:
I think blaster ships will become a new favorite in station games (where you tend to be less than 5km from your target and neither one moves much).



you mean as it is now? station games is the only place where blaster ships can be used because you don't have to die trying to get close to the target.

Thomas Orca wrote:
The Deimos actually is Ok with current Gallente buffs. It finally has the room to fit what needs to actually function in a PVP HAC role.

but, will there be a reason to use it over a pulse zealot? or a vagabond? or even a beam zealot or munnin if you try to go rail with it? hell, for sniping is there a reason to even use it over a cerberus?
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#67 Posted: 2011.11.18 03:35
Hybrid changes are definitely improvements, However amar and Minmitar are still better suited for pvp. With all the game changes in the last few years the entire Hybrid platform can be thrown out and rewritten from scratch.

Nice to see effort, but it might be to little to late.
Gallente Federation
#68 Posted: 2011.11.18 04:34
The only fix for hybrids is a redesign.
Fraternity.
#69 Posted: 2011.11.18 04:42
Not sure about the change but at least it is a good thing for the forgotten stuff. +1
Pandemic Legion
#70 Posted: 2011.11.18 05:04
Grimpak wrote:


but, will there be a reason to use it over a pulse zealot? or a vagabond? or even a beam zealot or munnin if you try to go rail with it? hell, for sniping is there a reason to even use it over a cerberus?



Why use it over a cerberus: Instant damage

Why use it over one of the other ships:

1) its all you can fly

2) at what is long range for beams its got higher DPS because it uses a shorter range ammo

3) shorter reload cycles means less down time between DPS

4) its short range guns can actually now compete dps wise with AC's, since most often times AC's are trying to shoot from deep fall off. Couple that with the fact that smart fitters will realize that most gallent ships have a built in damage bonus and a smart fitter will actually go towards buffing range (TE's) instead of DPS to better apply their already higher DPS.


Basically if you can alter the way you think about fitting from what is considered 'traditional' fitting, you'll find the Blaster ships competing nicely with their counterparts.

Caldari will fit Mag Stabs, Gallente will fit Tracking Enhancers (and still come out doing sweet DPS), Rails, well rails just pretty much own right now, the ability to use AntiMatter out to extreme ranges means that no, you don't use all the range potential of the rail, but the range you do use, will put out SIGNIFICANTLY higher DPS numbers than the beam or artillery counterparts, with the side effect of Rails out tracking Arty by a mile.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
#71 Posted: 2011.11.18 05:06
CCP said these wherent final they're just at an uncomfortable point where they dont know if they need to tweak it more or not.
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Amarr Empire
#72 Posted: 2011.11.18 07:03  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Grath Telkin wrote:

Learn to fit?




dont be a troll. you know perfectly well that there's no reason to fly a rail Deimos over a pulse Zealot, Cane, Cynabal, Vaga, etc. this is my point. if i cant fit a 1600mm with EANM's in the lows, and maintain 400-500 turret dps at 20-30km, then im not flying the Deimos.

if im gonna mount blasters on the Deimos, i might as well fly a BC, or the navy vex with sentries, which gives me more applied dps for the same EHP.
Caldari State
#73 Posted: 2011.11.18 07:46
Eagle is still short on PG, it should be boosted if there are any chances of it seeing any use - fit rails and T2 MWD on it and it's short by 10 grid, do same on Deimos - 130 grid free, arty Munnin - 50 grid free, heavy beam Zealot - 70 grid free
I think it needs about 40-60 base grid more at least, reduce CPU in exchange by 20-30, there is too much


#74 Posted: 2011.11.18 08:53
Would say I'm fairly content if those are the final changes. Railguns are now slightly more viable in a PvE situation. The reduced cap and fitting requirements are a major relief.

In combination with the destroyer buffs that are rolling in on the 29th, I can see Rail Catalysts and Rail Cormorants actually playing a role in small fleet situations.
#75 Posted: 2011.11.18 09:16  |  Edited by: Justine Valentine
I am happy, because my Rokh, Megathron, Vindicator and Proteus will do more dmg. Simple as that.

Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships?
Amarr Empire
#76 Posted: 2011.11.18 09:21
Justine Valentine wrote:

Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships?

pyfa has some pretty recent numbers.
Add 5% to blaster DPS, 10% to rail tracking, ignore the Naga and add a 25m3 drone bay to the Talos.
http://dl.evefit.org/eve-test/singularity-311120/pyfa-1.0.6-singularity-311120-win32.zip

All the fitting requirements are correctly updated, though.
Some Gallentean ships look really nice. Unfortunately, most Caldari hybrid ships are still terrible.
#77 Posted: 2011.11.18 09:28
DarkAegix wrote:
Justine Valentine wrote:

Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships?

pyfa has some pretty recent numbers.
Add 5% to blaster DPS, 10% to rail tracking, ignore the Naga and add a 25m3 drone bay to the Talos.
http://dl.evefit.org/eve-test/singularity-311120/pyfa-1.0.6-singularity-311120-win32.zip

All the fitting requirements are correctly updated, though.
Some Gallentean ships look really nice. Unfortunately, most Caldari hybrid ships are still terrible.


Thanks alot :) I was observing their thread and I am gonna change my EFT with PYFA today. Too bad their website is currently down :( Can't download it for now.
#78 Posted: 2011.11.18 09:33
Miang Sun wrote:
The only fix for hybrids is a redesign.

this

but ccp never redesigns anything, they just add useless shiny **** to distract you.
Pandemic Legion
#79 Posted: 2011.11.18 09:35  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Learn to fit?




dont be a troll. you know perfectly well that there's no reason to fly a rail Deimos over a pulse Zealot, Cane, Cynabal, Vaga, etc. this is my point. if i cant fit a 1600mm with EANM's in the lows, and maintain 400-500 turret dps at 20-30km, then im not flying the Deimos.

if im gonna mount blasters on the Deimos, i might as well fly a BC, or the navy vex with sentries, which gives me more applied dps for the same EHP.


Hey I flat out offered to go toe to toe testing with anybody who wants right now on the test server, set a time and a date and we can buy hundreds of ships and fight over and over until you feel you've seen enough of the hybrid changes.

If you're for some reason scared to or worried about losing on the test server theres not much i can do to help you out, but I'm willing to go the extra mile because I actually believe what I put in print.

I believe your failures are in your fitting, I'm willing to go round and round to prove it, in actual fights.

Fly as many hurricanes as you want, I killed about 9 yesterday in buffer tanked deimos's.

Evemail me the time and day you want to do it and we'll see how you fare.

EDIT: And i guess you don't fly a cane cynabal or pulse zealot either because none of those holds 500 dps at 30km in any realistic environment.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Gallente Federation
#80 Posted: 2011.11.18 12:45
Grath Telkin wrote:

4) its short range guns can actually now compete dps wise with AC's, since most often times AC's are trying to shoot from deep fall off. Couple that with the fact that smart fitters will realize that most gallent ships have a built in damage bonus and a smart fitter will actually go towards buffing range (TE's) instead of DPS to better apply their already higher DPS.


Basically if you can alter the way you think about fitting from what is considered 'traditional' fitting, you'll find the Blaster ships competing nicely with their counterparts.

Caldari will fit Mag Stabs, Gallente will fit Tracking Enhancers (and still come out doing sweet DPS), Rails, well rails just pretty much own right now, the ability to use AntiMatter out to extreme ranges means that no, you don't use all the range potential of the rail, but the range you do use, will put out SIGNIFICANTLY higher DPS numbers than the beam or artillery counterparts, with the side effect of Rails out tracking Arty by a mile.



so from your view that means that:

A) basically blaster ships with damage mods are bad fits now? since I'll need to cram TE's on them and in the case of the deimos that means 2-3 lowslots of the 6 it has, so that it becomes a bad version of the vagabond? I mean it still has mobility issues, so that means that the lowslots are either for damage mods (and still be slower and have less damage projection than the vagabond) or nano (which will need 2 slots for to even compete with a vaga without any kind of nano even after changes), or going with tank and simply failing to reach the vaga every time.

ok it is a bit of a pigeonholing, a vaga vs deimos competition, but with a 2TE deimos + null and HAC 4, the falloff + optimal for a deimos is on the 24km range, and on the vaga is at about 40km range, and that's comparing a deimos with neutrons and a vagabond with 220's. atm without any speed changes, the vaga is a whole 800m/sec faster than the deimos, and that's not even using any speed mod besides a mwd in it. The zealot, as a counterpoint, will be doing, disregarding tracking, full damage with HPL and scorch aaaaaaaaallll the way till 40km and you still have about 8km falloff, while maintaining similar base speed with mwd. this using just 2 TE's.
damage wise, with just guns, we're looking at a range between 222dps of the barrage vaga all the way to 280dps of the null neutron deimos, with the zealot sitting confortably on the 260dps range. The 5% damage boost on the blasters might pull it to the 300dps damage barrier when using neutrons+null, and the more relaxed fittings might make it actually able to slam neutrons on it without running out grid, but the very same core issues that plagued blaster ships are still there: not enough damage for a point blank weapon (which you're trying to transform into a poor man's version of the autocannon btw), coupled with hulls that don't have enough mobility to bring the minimal damage advantage to bear.


B) gallente are now a sniper race? ok then, better forget about blasters then!
Straight
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