Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Apocalypse Now.
#2241 - 2013-11-27 00:51:46 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
I have no use for this weapon, I really don't give a toss about nulsec fleets or whatever peculiar niche it might be slightly better at. I have 6million skill points total and the Caracal was one of the only ships I could use, this is what people don't seem to understand... people like me are left with no option than to be forced out of our chosen race of ships. So far it's happened at frigate level and destroyer level and now cruiser level i may as well just give up on Caldari but I'd rather I didn't have to.

I am in a good position. I managed to make enough cash with my HML Drake before Retribution. So I was able to withstand the costs of skilling out of missiles. Plus the insurance from the losses of said drakes in lvl4s after the expansion also helped me out.

Regardless, I am completely out of Caldari ships in terms of combat. I may consider the use of certain ones for ECM but not if that gets nerfed too. So if I may say best of luck to you there.

Now moving on, I am not about to give up on the concept of fair-play and balance. Missile mechanics are broken and have been at least as long as I have been playing. Turrets get a major buff compared to missiles in the T2 versions. Missiles only get a ROF bonus with specialization skills which does nothing for the damage application issue. That said, missiles are great for two things: bashing structures and practically immobile ships (caps and supercaps).
#2242 - 2013-11-27 01:01:03 UTC
Warmistress Severine wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Warmistress Severine wrote:
Wow...

40 seconds reload time, when you have just 18 shots.... who envisioned this crap?


Welcome to the thread lol

Well i just climbed into my Caracal and was "trying" to do some solo pvp. f.u.c.k meh, when i realized what they did. Didn't get the mail on THAT change.


Yeah, it was only introduced about 10 days before the expansion launch, out the freaking blue. That is one of my frustrations about the way its been handled. That and CCP Rise refusal to acknowledge any negative feedback under the claim it wasn't constructive.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Apocalypse Now.
#2243 - 2013-11-27 01:21:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Maybe it is just as well. It all looks like a bit of a love in over there, and thats fine. Whether I agree with these changes or not (its pretty clear I don't lol), CCP Rise is still just a dude trying to make his way in the world.

Does this beg the question as to why CCP Rise can find 2.5 hours on Reddit to respond to questions but -zero- in CCP's own official forums?

Well, I had some fun bashing CCP Rise for failing in his job description/responsibilities to monitor his own threads on both Reddit and Twitter. No, I just made the accounts a few minutes ago for that express purpose.
#2244 - 2013-11-27 01:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Regardless, I am completely out of Caldari ships in terms of combat. I may consider the use of certain ones for ECM but not if that gets nerfed too. So if I may say best of luck to you there.

From the sounds of it ECM is going to be up on the chopping block sooner as opposed to later.
.....

And on a related note, I found a role for RLMLs in PvP as an anti-frigate deterrent on my Tengu. Obviously the RLML changes haven't completely filtered out to everyone (mmmm, Hawk - nom nom). A pair of them puts out close to 200 dps for 50 seconds, which when combined with HAMs or HMLs is more than enough to finish the little bastards off.

Note: This is not a ringing endorsement.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

#2245 - 2013-11-27 01:45:27 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Regardless, I am completely out of Caldari ships in terms of combat. I may consider the use of certain ones for ECM but not if that gets nerfed too. So if I may say best of luck to you there.

From the sounds of it ECM is going to be up on the chopping block sooner as opposed to later.
.....

And on a related note, I found a role for RLMLs in PvP as an anti-frigate deterrent on my Tengu. Obviously the RLML changes haven't completely filtered out to everyone (mmmm, Hawk - nom nom). A pair of them puts out close to 200 dps for 50 seconds, which when combined with HAMs or HMLs is more than enough to finish the little bastards off.

Note: This is not a ringing endorsement.


Yeah, ECM. The e-war everyone loves to hate. The irony being is its very easy to counter. For small gangs its tricky but for fleet fits, its very straightforward, but nobody wants to fit for it, train the skills, or use the command ship to increase ship sensor strength. Combine that with the fragility of the ships using it, and I'm not sure its truly broken, its just that people don't like giving up DPS or a slot to counter it. Add in the ability for ships to add some remote ECCM support to stuff like logistics, and there is little reason to be worried about it in a well fit gang.

There is also an element of skill to it and its something different to do in the game.

http://www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/blog/comments/pain_and_pleasure

Lets just hope they give us more than 10 days before release of the expansion they change it in. Given they've screwed over most Caldari ships lately (resist nerf, missile nerfs, lack of EHP bonus on vulture, nighthawk midslots etc) I'm not convinced it will be good news.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

#2246 - 2013-11-27 02:09:00 UTC
Rise isn't going to reply here anymore. He's done with this project and now he's busy with rebalancing Margin Trading. The only ones still watching this thread are the ISDs who hang around to make sure things don't get out of hand again.
#2247 - 2013-11-27 02:14:21 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rise isn't going to reply here anymore. He's done with this project and now he's busy with rebalancing Margin Trading. The only ones still watching this thread are the ISDs who hang around to make sure things don't get out of hand again.


I think it's a good idea for people to keep this thread alive myself. Sooner or later it might get their attention. Going silent on the other hand never will.
#2248 - 2013-11-27 02:16:01 UTC
I don't disagree. I'm merely responding to the sentiment (and a few outright statements) wondering about further reply from CCP 40Sec - I mean CCP Rise.
Apocalypse Now.
#2249 - 2013-11-27 02:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Moonaura wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Regardless, I am completely out of Caldari ships in terms of combat. I may consider the use of certain ones for ECM but not if that gets nerfed too. So if I may say best of luck to you there.

From the sounds of it ECM is going to be up on the chopping block sooner as opposed to later.
.....

And on a related note, I found a role for RLMLs in PvP as an anti-frigate deterrent on my Tengu. Obviously the RLML changes haven't completely filtered out to everyone (mmmm, Hawk - nom nom). A pair of them puts out close to 200 dps for 50 seconds, which when combined with HAMs or HMLs is more than enough to finish the little bastards off.

Note: This is not a ringing endorsement.


Yeah, ECM. The e-war everyone loves to hate. The irony being is its very easy to counter. For small gangs its tricky but for fleet fits, its very straightforward, but nobody wants to fit for it, train the skills, or use the command ship to increase ship sensor strength. Combine that with the fragility of the ships using it, and I'm not sure its truly broken, its just that people don't like giving up DPS or a slot to counter it. Add in the ability for ships to add some remote ECCM support to stuff like logistics, and there is little reason to be worried about it in a well fit gang.

There is also an element of skill to it and its something different to do in the game.

http://www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/blog/comments/pain_and_pleasure

Lets just hope they give us more than 10 days before release of the expansion they change it in. Given they've screwed over most Caldari ships lately (resist nerf, missile nerfs, lack of EHP bonus on vulture, nighthawk midslots etc) I'm not convinced it will be good news.

If that does happen then I am going to be livid and that is a cosmic understatement...

Of course, there is the point that is pretty easy to turn something into a PR nightmare for a company. All it takes is someone with the right connections and/or tenacity. That and I did some research during Retribution, CCP counts for a pretty size-able part of Iceland's economy. So, if they cross the "Rubicon" with the player base, well we can cause some serious economic incentives both on the company and Iceland as a whole. A fact that it would be wise of them not to discount or ignore.

Anyway, back on topic...

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I don't disagree. I'm merely responding to the sentiment (and a few outright statements) wondering about further reply from CCP 40Sec - I mean CCP Rise.


I love that new nickname for that particular CCP employee. Mind if I borrow that in future? ^_^

Besides the proposal that i made for missile mechanics changes still stands. I admit that it isn't perfect but it is a hell lot better than the present one. No offense to my fellows that spent a good amount of time working out similar proposals.
#2250 - 2013-11-27 02:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:

I love that new nickname for that particular CCP employee. Mind if I borrow that in future? ^_^

The idea is for it to catch on, so feel free to use it whenever and wherever you see fit.
#2251 - 2013-11-27 02:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rise isn't going to reply here anymore. He's done with this project and now he's busy with rebalancing Margin Trading. The only ones still watching this thread are the ISDs who hang around to make sure things don't get out of hand again.

Yes, "Margin Trading"... because it's such a balance issue. And it's not like there's any ships or weapons left to rebalance...

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
The idea is for it to catch on, so feel free to use it whenever and wherever you see fit.

Twisted
.....

After spending an evening screwing around in Faction Warfare, I'm starting to develop an affinity for the new RLMLs. They will not generally allow you to go head-to-head against a comparably-sized vessel, but they are immeasurable in "pest control". I drove off 2 small frigate-based attacks when the RLMLs put one past armor and well into hull and allowed me to dictate range in the other (microwarpdrives aren't limited to frigates). As previously stated, I cannot underscore enough that these cannot be used as a primary weapon - but only to supplement. That CCP40sec equates to either death or a reprieve in PvP.

I still think the RLML reload needs to drop to 20 seconds -or- increase the ammunition by 1/3.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

#2252 - 2013-11-27 03:51:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rise isn't going to reply here anymore. He's done with this project and now he's busy with rebalancing Margin Trading. The only ones still watching this thread are the ISDs who hang around to make sure things don't get out of hand again.

Yes, "Margin Trading"... because it's such a balance issue. And it's not like there's any ships or weapons left to rebalance...


Lots of things need to be rebalanced. But I'd rather someone else do it. I hope CCP 40Sec sticks with ancillary issues like margin trading from now on. Dude is terribad at ship and weapon balance.
#2253 - 2013-11-27 03:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Lots of things need to be rebalanced. But I'd rather someone else do it. I hope CCP 40Sec sticks with ancillary issues like margin trading from now on. Dude is terribad at ship and weapon balance.

Yes, Command ships were such a hit in Odyssey... and Marauders in Rubicon. Now a tentative nerf to Serpentis webs. Let's not forget pirates and T3s. I think if we keep working at it we can manage to **** off just about everyone in EVE while we wait for 'GoonGate'...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Amarr Empire
#2254 - 2013-11-27 07:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Dude is terribad at ship and weapon balance.

Yes, Command ships were such a hit in Odyssey... and Marauders in Rubicon. Now a tentative nerf to Serpentis webs.

Well well, how it went... you can't expect to comfortably sit in your dps Vindi and have a devastating affect on your opponent speed at "insane" ranges by simply pressing a key... Lol

I remember a guy crying how he got caught by nasty gate campers and one-shotted because remote sensor boosted Daredevil literally stopped his Dramiel before he could reach a gate and escape (which is exactly what Daredevil is supposed to do). That was so terribly OP and game breaking therefore let's just make things "balanced" by nerfing everything that stands out to the ground so we can enjoy flying equally worthless ships.
C C P Alliance
#2255 - 2013-11-27 11:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
You guys really can't continue to claim I haven't acknowledged your negative feedback.

I first responded to concerns here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3851753#post3851753
then I responded again here after reading more feedback: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3864075#post3864075
and finally I directly commented on the volume of complaints and why I wasn't acting based on them in this post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3864922#post3864922

Look at the previous page of feedback. Several posts calling me names or talking about ECM, and one post from someone actually using RLML who says they are enjoying them. This is a really good example of how the thread has gone in general and represents why I haven't made big changes so far.

Since launch, I've been continuing to monitor the effect of the rapid missile change through usage metrics, discussion with CSM, conversation with players I know who are using them and using them myself on TQ. I see that some places, especially in this thread, there's a lot of frustration still about the change in general but the majority of it is lacking any substance except for the simple claim that 40 seconds of reload isn't fun.

I'm going to continue to watch this very closely and won't hesitate to make changes if I'm convinced (or others in my department) are convinced that they are needed.

edit: I want to add that I hope to never make a big balance change this late in a release cycle again. I felt that it was worth it in this case because rolling out Rapid Heavies with the intention of making a big change to their mechanic shortly after release would be worse than getting them out with the right mechanic and time to tune them if the balance wasn't exactly right. This trickled down to RLML as well. I still think that was the right decision but I want to work to avoid having to do it in the future.

@ccp_rise

Caldari State
#2256 - 2013-11-27 12:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
CCP Rise wrote:

Since launch, I've been continuing to monitor the effect of the rapid missile change through usage metrics, discussion with CSM, conversation with players I know who are using them and using them myself on TQ. I see that some places, especially in this thread, there's a lot of frustration still about the change in general but the majority of it is lacking any substance except for the simple claim that 40 seconds of reload isn't fun.


Put the 40 second reload onto every weapon in game if its such a great mechanic.

I hope your not counting my sliep in your usage stats.
There only on there suplimental to the guns because there's not enough grid fo heavies.
Not becaues I was impressed or anything.

Reload was not the major issue as I was bouncing around anyway.
What was the issue was having to use them in dumbed down mode.
i.e. load exp and be happy with it.

No chance of smart damage selection.

Weapon may be ok for low skilled null sec blob bears ganking stuff.
Gallente Federation
#2257 - 2013-11-27 12:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Dav Varan wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Since launch, I've been continuing to monitor the effect of the rapid missile change through usage metrics, discussion with CSM, conversation with players I know who are using them and using them myself on TQ. I see that some places, especially in this thread, there's a lot of frustration still about the change in general but the majority of it is lacking any substance except for the simple claim that 40 seconds of reload isn't fun.


Put the 40 second reload onto every weapon in game if its such a great mech.




give me front loaded damage, selectable damage types, exccelent projection and tracking and I'd happily have it


@CCP Rise:

Could you please look into the turret version of these weapons (the Dual 150mm rails, quad light beam lasers etc) because those things are god awful at shooting frigates. The 150mm rails fitted to a thorax using Javelin with a scrammed and webbed and tracking computer can't even hit a cruiser anywhere inside it's engagement envelope.
The damage of these weapons and the range is just fine. Their tracking is just so terrible.
Amarr Empire
#2258 - 2013-11-27 12:30:13 UTC
I've been flying Caracals loaded with RLMLs, to give them a fair chance. Soloing, I'm struggling with it, in good part due to the time it takes to load the correct damage type.

For small gangs (~3?) it is a nice support platform to keep frigates away... unless one with the "wrong" resists lands, then the Caracal might as well not be there.

Also, the UI not having any representation for how long the reload takes is an issue. Just having it "flashing" isn't very useful if my ship is edging towards armour and I'm not certain how long it will still take... fight or flight?

I think addressing these would make it more enjoyable. And I also agree with the comments of 40s not being fun. It is a simple claim but an important one.
Shadow Cartel
#2259 - 2013-11-27 12:35:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really can't continue to claim I haven't acknowledged your negative feedback.


You haven't acknowledge that light missiles are stupid, perhaps because you only look at 'usage metrics'.
Gallente Federation
#2260 - 2013-11-27 12:36:07 UTC
Elise Delacroix wrote:
I've been flying Caracals loaded with RLMLs, to give them a fair chance. Soloing, I'm struggling with it, in good part due to the time it takes to load the correct damage type.

For small gangs (~3?) it is a nice support platform to keep frigates away... unless one with the "wrong" resists lands, then the Caracal might as well not be there.

Also, the UI not having any representation for how long the reload takes is an issue. Just having it "flashing" isn't very useful if my ship is edging towards armour and I'm not certain how long it will still take... fight or flight?

I think addressing these would make it more enjoyable. And I also agree with the comments of 40s not being fun. It is a simple claim but an important one.




Feedback (count down timer) for reloads on all modules and cool down timers would be a massive improvement to the UI

Ammo switching is I believe in hand. I think the idea is to allow you to switch ammo for the same ammount already loaded. not sure if instant or timed.

If you have the feed back of reload timers and the ammo switching issue solved I believe this weapon would be accepted easily.
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