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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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#441 - 2013-12-04 12:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tepalica
Interesting ship, and even more interesting ideas how to change it so it can find it's place under the sun in the game - hope this doesn't turn into another Marauder thread...

Thing is, it is very hard to comment on this ship without knowing what exactly are you doing with actual Black Ops ships in terms of balancing (I assume they are next in line for a rework).

I have to notice, you haven't mentioned the ship warp speed anywhere (that became a big deal after Rubicon was released - I assume it's 2AU/s like all other battleships)

This remote repair idea you came up with is a bit confusing - in order to make it comparable to a logistics cruiser, you would have to fit at least 3 large remote repairers and one large energy transfer and fill the ship almost entirely with cap mods, which is more or less a standard triage carrier setup, except this thing can't triage, has no room for a decent tank in that setup, has an absolutely HORRIBLE scan resolution (Oneiros has 456mm scan res and Nestor would require 4 scan res scripted sensor boosters to reach 406mm scan res), has useless remote repairing range, it's over 3 times heavier than a fully fit Guardian that can repair AND give cap to the fleet, and will cost as much as a REAL triage carrier while a fully pimp fitted Guardian costs a fraction of that - so why don't you tell us again, how this ship will be "very interesting" to the wormhole people, because I don't see it...

Someone mentioned spider tanking - I hope they weren't thinking about drone boats doing sleeper sites. As for PvP spider tanking, Dominix does that quite well, and for 1/10th of the price.

The ship is way too slow to be able to travel and operate in both low and null sec, as well as not being immune to bubbles, so the exploration bonuses are wasted on it as it is right now.



Turn your thoughts from this crazy battleship logistics idea and follow the cloaky exploration theme that you already started with SoE ships:


Keep the exploration bonuses

Give it a cloaked velocity bonus (preferably significantly more than what current Black Ops have to make it unique, around 400m/s max velocity while cloaked would be interesting to see), no targeting delay after decloaking, make it more agile kinda like the Machariel is right now, or at least like the Vindicator is and reduce the ship's defenses, especially the amount of hull hit points - these changes would allow the Nestor to hit a bubbled gate camp and have a realistic chance of getting through it in one piece.


Remove the remote repair bonus and do this:

Gallente Battleship Bonuses: 10% drone damage and hitpoints 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level

I believe this would be an interesting bonus because it would bring more decision making for players in PvP, 5 large armor maintenance drones would roughly repair the same amount of armor per second as would 2 large remote armor repairers and while that may seem overpowered, remember that this is a drone boat, so if it's doing repairs, it's not doing much damage and while these armor repair bots would make the ship less vulnerable to E-war when it comes to repairing others, drones still have their travel time as well as being vulnerable to enemy fire so it's far from fail-proof.


Lastly, I would like Nestor to be a jump capable ship, just like the Black Ops is, same range, being able to fit a Covert Cyno Generator, being able to jump to a normal AND covert cyno but WITHOUT the ability to fit a Covert Jump Bridge Generator so it doesn't tread too much into the Black Ops T2 specialization.

If you want this ship to be a REAL combat capable exploration ship which is able to operate deep in hostile space, this is the way to make it happen!
Eve Engineering
#442 - 2013-12-04 12:17:02 UTC
how about this:



Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
200% bonus to Capacitor Transfer, Remote Repair range
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers
100% reduction in CPU requirements for cloaks

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Devices.



Ok I still don't get what everyone has against having Battleships with covert ops cloaks, but still seems to strike fear in so many seeing as they will be an expensive loss to some and an impressive kill for others, really don't see the issue. But if you are going to do a WH exploration battleship you may as well do it right it needs a covert ops cloak, and I doubt they will plague the space ways and fleets for a good while given the requirements to get one and the price tag will probably be up around 1.5 to 2bil if you add the covert ops cloak ability to it.

Again if it is an exploration vessel it will need the ability to explore so scan strength and virus strength will be useful, so I guess those roles can stay the same.

If you are going to make it a logistics platform as well give it some flexibility allow the use of shield and hull reps with a range bonus, this will fit in with the SOE as if you can completely fix a ship in space a long way form a station, however this does not mean that you would necessary fit all the reppers to your ship, but it is nice to have more options. Also energy transfers with a range boost given that logistics isn't worth a damn without a good cap transfer (yes I know that you can fit logi that don't require it, but it does seem to work better with the transfer P ).

When the info about this ship was announced it seems that it would have a clone bay and a shuttle bay fitted to it any more details on that? A clone bay that works in a WH would be very useful, and if the shuttle bay can take a few frigates would be better Lol

I guess this wont be a popular approach with some but if you are going for a design to work in an area like WH space and whatever else might be coming to space near us soon it would be nice to have some good tools to do the job, and having an exploration battleship that can take care of its self and evade hostile fleets is going to be a good start. The Stratios and Astero are good ships and an excellent start to this design philosophy of the SOE ships have I personally would love to see it continue into this battleship, but looks like those who fear the cloaked ships might win this one. Yes even I find a cloaked ship hiding in a system frustrating but I don't see why that should effect adding cov ops cloaks to anything bigger than a cruiser.

Caldari State
#443 - 2013-12-04 12:23:13 UTC
Interesting...If it had jump bridge capability or black ops cyno capability might work. Not in favour of more invisible ships. Think its for ghost sites, not your regular relic or data.

I concede it doesn't make sense to roam in one, especially in hostile territory. Cyno capability might serve its purpose well, better than a covops battleship, would be way too OP. No battleship is supposed to run alone really. A BS without support is well...BS.

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.

Gallente Federation
#444 - 2013-12-04 12:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Really no to a fully covert battleship


If you don't understand why a fully covert battleship is massivley overpowered you need to consider what you would be able to do with it OUTSIDE of exploration

This Nestor SOE Battleship should be a BLOPs style covert bridger. Shouldnt have bonuses to scanning or hacking. Just Resists, Laser optimal, Drone damage and the BLOP's role bonuses

SOE could then develope and produce a battlcruiser that (pick 5):
Has bonuses to remote reps
Has bonuses to remote energy transfers
Has bonuses to tracking links
Has bonuses to remote ECCM/and remote SeBo's
Has the standard SOE offensive package (Drones and lasers with 4% armour resists)
Has the BLOPs cloaking bonuses
Athena Maldoran
#445 - 2013-12-04 12:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Athena Maldoran
I really wanted a covert ops bs with rr capabilities.. *sniffle*

Considering all the "trouble" getting to a location to get some sweet exploration, traveling there without a cloak, with such an expensive ship.. HAHAHAHA..

Not many people in wormholes thinks: "Mass is the important thing when im goin to do this sleeper site", They avoid drone boats alltogether. So im not very sure why ccp sticks with the whole less mass=super cool ship?

And why are you going 7 highselots on a ship that is considered a utility ship? It doesnt make much sense, it should be 8, with 5 guns hardpoints.
#446 - 2013-12-04 12:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
also, it should have a 7H 5M 7L or 7H 6M 7L or 7H 5M 8L layout.



The 7/6//6 could be cool, but the bonues need to be untangled.

Is it a repper, a tanker or a damage dealer.

The scanning bonus needs to go, who the helll is going to probe...welll anything...with a battleship.



lots of people, just cause you wont or others may have alts dual boxed for scanning



I have more than one alt for scanning.

So say you are using your snappy multi-billion isk battleship to scan. IF you spuad/wing/fleet warp with your gang is ONLY going to go as fast as the battelship 2AU with crap accelleration

.....this is why we use cov-ops to scann for frigate gangs.

It would defeat the purpose entire to to ensure that your gang needs a half a minute to get across a system because a gang can only warp as fast as its slowest ship.

TrouserDeagle wrote:


It's not too much, it's just like the old dominix but tankier and with a worse weapon system (lasers).


It wouldn't be tankier, 6 low slots? It would considerably down in damage vice the old T1 Domi, (which was sentries and 350mm rails) that had a 5% damage bonus to hybrids, as well as the drone bonus.

....Nestor could have decent application, but the lot layour is a mess for armor tank and gank.
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2013-12-04 12:38:56 UTC
Actully i have an idea with the cloaking aspect of this ship, either it could stay cloaked for a longer time after jumping through a gate or maybe it might not show up on the D-scan. just throwing it out there, of course they would still see you in local etc..
Athena Maldoran
#448 - 2013-12-04 12:42:22 UTC
Scorpionstrike wrote:
Actully i have an idea with the cloaking aspect of this ship, either it could stay cloaked for a longer time after jumping through a gate or maybe it might not show up on the D-scan. just throwing it out there, of course they would still see you in local etc..


As long as it have to travel gates and is not immune to bubbles, its going to be less interesting to get this ship considering the price and what you can use it for.
Pandemic Legion
#449 - 2013-12-04 12:42:36 UTC
I like this ship.
Caldari State
#450 - 2013-12-04 12:44:54 UTC
Keep it in the exploration bussiness.

I would consider thinking of the Nestor as a remote base operations.

So keep the SoE

Resistance and drone bonuses.

keep the low mass.

give it the Black ops cloak movement bonus, no covert op jump ability

and give it a fleethanger and a clonebay and a large cargo bay

in this set up I can see a leet o SoE ships going out to explore.

frigate to scout, cruiser or protection and the Battleship as base.
#451 - 2013-12-04 12:45:28 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:

If you don't understand why a fully covert battleship is massivley overpowered you need to consider what you would be able to do with it OUTSIDE of exploration


Then perhaps you should explain because it is no more overpowered than a cloaky T3, and they are fine for the most part.

If this new battleship had a covert cloak, it might have great dps on paper but its damage application is pretty crap. It also comes with several weaknesses that existing covert ships don't have.
#452 - 2013-12-04 12:46:37 UTC
Not sure why, but i like to call that thing already unbalanced even before it's in the game O.o

[u]Things that would make EVE better:[/u] NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ

Minmatar Republic
#453 - 2013-12-04 12:48:30 UTC
IMHO, right now, this ship is trying to decide whether it's a drone boat, lasor sniper, exploration ship and/or logistics support ship.

I would love to see this thing move more into a support role for the Astero and Stratios, with possibly being able to choose between being a Logistics support, or a sniper support.
In light of that..

The virus strength bonus is wasted, sure it looks nice on paper, but if it's there to support the Stratios and Astero, as well as being a big battleship, with low agility, meaning it will not be able to quickly move from can to can, or chase after a can that is still there but just got out of range, it will not be needing this.

The remote rep bonus is nice, but without extra range, it will fail at this, as you need to bunch up heavily to be able to properly make use of this.

The probing bonus is a good one in my opinion, because it's an exploration ship, and it should be able to probe on it's own, in case the rest of it's fleet has been wiped out.

The laser range bonus is ok, giving it a good reason to sit back and snipe with lasers and drones as an armour tanking ship, it will have plenty of room in mids to enhance drone range to match. along with utility highs for extra drone control range.

In all, the one thing this ship really lacks is cloaking. Now putting a covert cloaking device on this would be quite overpowered, however maybe give it a similar bonus like the BLOPs, so it can use a regular cloak effectively. Adding a jump portal generator like a BLOP would also again be a bit much ( though NICE! ), instead give it the ability to make use of a BLOP's jump portal, so it can join on covert operations as a support ship.

As the viral bonus is useless, I would recommend replacing this with a 100% or 200% increase in remote rep range, so while not being a full on logi, still have a decent range at which to make use of it's reppers. Lowering the rep amount bonus to 25% or eliminating it would probably be required though in this case.

Finally, while it has an extremely low mass, it's less agile than a pregnant whale giving birth, maybe improve this a little bit.

As for the alliance tournament.. this ship has Tinker written all over it.. 7 large reppers with 50% extra repping power makes for a VERY solid defense..



Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?

Gallente Federation
#454 - 2013-12-04 12:59:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We can certainly discuss this amount vs range thing. Can you guys help me out saying specifically in relation to it:

Do you feel you need added range to be able to run PVE content, or just to PVP, or both?
Are you asking for bonus to amount AND bonus to range or bonus to range INSTEAD of amount?

Not sure when it gets to sisi but there will be plenty of time before release to play with it.



As a logi/carrier pilot heres how I general view it; range bonus typically means dedicated logistics ship. You're able to maintain distance and use that distance to keep yourself alive and others alive. In PvE and PvP this tends to be true. The range bonus allows other ships to detach from the main body while still remaining within rep-range.
An amount bonus is something I typically would associate with a more generalised ship. It brings to mind spider gangs and logistic T3 setups. It is a bonus more useful to a ship that does not need to detach from the main body or whose strategy will consist if balling up with similarly fit ships.

Personally, I would take the Nestor as is, it would make a good replacement for RR domi gangs, especially in wormholes (low mass, hell yes) where it could be useful in both pvp and pve. Its placement as an exploration battleship seems to fit well with the repair amount bonus rather than a range bonus. My only complaint would be that the repair bonus does not seem to apply to energy transfers which in my opinion is a bit of a shame. RR battleship gangs are pretty much going to need energy transfers in order to be cap stable with their remote repairers and extending the bonus to energy transfers as well as repair modules would have allowed for a more interesting fit.


Minmatar Republic
#455 - 2013-12-04 13:08:52 UTC
Kel hound wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We can certainly discuss this amount vs range thing. Can you guys help me out saying specifically in relation to it:

Do you feel you need added range to be able to run PVE content, or just to PVP, or both?
Are you asking for bonus to amount AND bonus to range or bonus to range INSTEAD of amount?

Not sure when it gets to sisi but there will be plenty of time before release to play with it.



As a logi/carrier pilot heres how I general view it; range bonus typically means dedicated logistics ship. You're able to maintain distance and use that distance to keep yourself alive and others alive. In PvE and PvP this tends to be true. The range bonus allows other ships to detach from the main body while still remaining within rep-range.
An amount bonus is something I typically would associate with a more generalised ship. It brings to mind spider gangs and logistic T3 setups. It is a bonus more useful to a ship that does not need to detach from the main body or whose strategy will consist if balling up with similarly fit ships.

Personally, I would take the Nestor as is, it would make a good replacement for RR domi gangs, especially in wormholes (low mass, hell yes) where it could be useful in both pvp and pve. Its placement as an exploration battleship seems to fit well with the repair amount bonus rather than a range bonus. My only complaint would be that the repair bonus does not seem to apply to energy transfers which in my opinion is a bit of a shame. RR battleship gangs are pretty much going to need energy transfers in order to be cap stable with their remote repairers and extending the bonus to energy transfers as well as repair modules would have allowed for a more interesting fit.



It's nice untill someone brings 2 guardians and smartbombing BS (plus 2 tackle). Then your tiny/shiny fleet of spider tanking 2B battleships will be very, very quickly dead.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 

#456 - 2013-12-04 13:14:10 UTC
NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
Multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote repair amount
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers

Note: can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generators and Covert Jump Portal Generators. No targeting delay after decloaking. Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds.

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700


FIXED IT

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.

Gallente Federation
#457 - 2013-12-04 13:14:21 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Moridin Mandarb wrote:
Most of the suggestions I have seen on here look to make the ship more powerful, some to the point of absurdity. Here is my suggestion :

Gallente bonus : Armor Remote rep amount and range, 50% per level
Amarr bonus : Cap transfer amount and range, 50% per level

(For comparison, a Guardian is 150%, and has a usage reduction to boot)


The scan and virus strength bonuses should be dropped - scanning and hacking is done by combat ships. This ship should be about support, not being able to solo things

I would give it the ability to jump through BLOPS bridges, but not create a bridge. This would fit it along the lines of the other SoE ships, but not make it better than standard BLOPS.

No cloak bonuses or anything like that, as that would make it shine above current BLOPS.

Keep the rest the same, including the large drone bay. The drone bay makes it a little helpful for damage, and much more in a support role, but not better than other drone boats.

In this configuration, it would be useful in both PVP and PVE, but not overshadow other ships.

In PvP, it would be useful because of it's large tank, being able to soak up more damage than a Guardian. However, it doesn't surplant the Guardian due to the lower rep amount. It can be bridged into far away systems, to help with Black Ops ships, but it cannot cloak and hide (without taking a major penalty to it's repping power).

In PvE, it is useful to be able to reach far away systems quickly, in order to support other ships doing DED complexes or missions, and in that role it helps a lot, similar to the PvP benefits I mentioned before. However, it doesn't compare to other ships for raw DPS or tank.

I feel this meets to requirements of fitting it into the exploration role, while not sacrificing other ships to to accomplish it.


This is a drone-centered ship. Not a logistics BS. Also, the ship would become less useful than many others if used solo using your suggestions. It's an interesting idea, but it is totally unsuited for the Nestor.



There are 17 other battleships that can go do the solo pwn mobile, and 3 that can actually run a support function. We all could care less about solo at the moment.

The reason people want covops cloaking is so that they can go solo in wormholes, low and null in a battleship (they believe that since they can cloak, they can fly back and forth with little fear and giggle and hide, maybe snipe on occasion, run DED's and do all sites, and be deployed for basically ever in a cloaky combat fit battleship). The reason I wanted Covops cloaking is that so the battleship could JUMP through but NOT CREATE a blackops jump portal (to jump through a blackops bridge, the ship in question must be able to fit and use a covops cloaking device, aka, scout ships, bombers, reconfigured T3's, Blockade Runners, and the two SOE ships currently). If the ship could jump through a blackops bridge and follow the two sister ships without a cloak, I'm fine with that too. It gives the battleship force projection that no other ship in the game has as, including carriers and dreads.

We don't need another solo-mobile. We have enough already. A possible fleet ship maybe a better offering, aka, Spacepriest.

Yaay!!!!

C C P Alliance
#458 - 2013-12-04 13:42:07 UTC
Hi hi

I haven't been in the office today so sorry for the break in communication. I'm still not in actually, so I don't have time to go into tons of depth here but I wanted to address a few of the trends I see so far in the feedback.

First, I think we should get some kind of range bonus on the reps. 100% sounds about right, but we need to talk about this as a team before anything gets committed to. I'll get back to you once we can figure out where to go.

Second, It's really not getting a covert cloak . This is an extremely powerful capability and it's possible that it should stay off limits for battleships completely. On top of that, if there was going to be a covert battleship, black ops is where we need to start. We will be looking at them for a balance pass eventually, they are one of the remaining classes that haven't gotten their tiericide pass yet, and we can approach this topic when that happens.

Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.

I'll be back in the office tomorrow and I'll catch up on the thread fully and try to cover anything big that I missed here.

@ccp_rise

Minmatar Republic
#459 - 2013-12-04 13:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Koban Agalder
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi hi

I haven't been in the office today so sorry for the break in communication. I'm still not in actually, so I don't have time to go into tons of depth here but I wanted to address a few of the trends I see so far in the feedback.

First, I think we should get some kind of range bonus on the reps. 100% sounds about right, but we need to talk about this as a team before anything gets committed to. I'll get back to you once we can figure out where to go.

Second, It's really not getting a covert cloak . This is an extremely powerful capability and it's possible that it should stay off limits for battleships completely. On top of that, if there was going to be a covert battleship, black ops is where we need to start. We will be looking at them for a balance pass eventually, they are one of the remaining classes that haven't gotten their tiericide pass yet, and we can approach this topic when that happens.

Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.

I'll be back in the office tomorrow and I'll catch up on the thread fully and try to cover anything big that I missed here.

You srsly want someone to run data/hacking/ghost sites in BS worth 1.5B o0? In HS it may be doable but not in low/null/WH... Those bonuses are wasted on BS hull.

And for the sake of everything make it more unique, I know that asking for posibility to jump to other systems (without/without cyno/ random around the sun) or other unorthodox thing (which require actual new programming) is too much, but please consider your options.


Poeple who consider those ships as a way of spider tanking WH sites are very brave ones... who will die very quickly as noone goes by group of 1.5B BS and not gank them. Due to the price it's more isk-wise to bring carrier in their place... even the Nidhoggur!!

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 

#460 - 2013-12-04 13:45:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi hi

I haven't been in the office today so sorry for the break in communication. I'm still not in actually, so I don't have time to go into tons of depth here but I wanted to address a few of the trends I see so far in the feedback.

First, I think we should get some kind of range bonus on the reps. 100% sounds about right, but we need to talk about this as a team before anything gets committed to. I'll get back to you once we can figure out where to go.

Second, It's really not getting a covert cloak . This is an extremely powerful capability and it's possible that it should stay off limits for battleships completely. On top of that, if there was going to be a covert battleship, black ops is where we need to start. We will be looking at them for a balance pass eventually, they are one of the remaining classes that haven't gotten their tiericide pass yet, and we can approach this topic when that happens.

Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.

I'll be back in the office tomorrow and I'll catch up on the thread fully and try to cover anything big that I missed here.



Just give it the normal black ops capabilities and it's fixed. The limitations to low slots and RR range are actually fine, makes things challenging

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.

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