Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
38 Pages123Next pageLast page
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

First post First post
Author
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-01-21 11:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hello

I posted an update recently in the old rapid missile thread on this topic but I assume many of you haven't been watching that so I'm making a new thread for the time being with some updates for 1.1.

The basic gist is that we aren't satisfied with some of the pain points resulting from the change (especially ammo swapping) and want to continue to iterate until they are in the best possible place. For this patch we weren't able to get in a fix for the ammo swapping. We tried a few versions and all of them had enough issues that we didn't feel comfortable deploying. For 1.1 we are going to do the following:

  • All rapid missile launchers will have 35 second reload timers rather than 40 seconds
  • Rapid Light Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 20 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 19 missiles per magazine for tech 1
  • Rapid Heavy Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 25 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 24 missiles per magazine for tech 1

  • This change is meant to increase their power slightly, and make them feel a little better to use by cutting down the reload time.

    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them, so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months. Large changes are still on the table and I won't be finished with this until we address the ammo swapping issue.

    Thanks for reading and responding

    @ccp_rise

    #2 - 2014-01-21 11:20:51 UTC
    Unfortunately, 35 sec still considered as long time, but I'm glad you are focusing on the problem you caused last expansion and working for solutions

    Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #3 - 2014-01-21 11:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
    I think 35 s is still too long - it's too still frustrating to use and hence too un-fun. Personally I'd aim for reload time being half that of the shooting time, adjusting ROF and capacity as needed to get reasonable burst and sustained DPS. However, it's a good move in general. Numbers for a triple-BCS Caracal using Fury:

    Original RLML: 266 DPS
    Previous RLML: shooting time 44.3 s, reload time 40 s, burst DPS 410, sustained 215 DPS, 81% of original.
    New RLML: shooting time 49.2 s, reload time 35 s, burst DPS 410, sustained 239 DPS, 90% of original.
    Shadow Cartel
    #4 - 2014-01-21 11:53:41 UTC
    light missile nerf when
    #5 - 2014-01-21 11:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentinel Mantik
    Ever considered some bonus to flightspeed with a nerf to flight time with the Rapid Launchers? That would bring the initial damage to the target more "rapidly" without increasing the range. That would maybe improve the weapon as a "anti-frig for cruisers" more. (or anti-cruiser for BS)
    Or do they serve another role by now?

    Minmatar 4 life

    German player.

    Tactical-Retreat
    #6 - 2014-01-21 12:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Gypsio III wrote:
    I think 35 s is still too long - it's too still frustrating to use and hence too un-fun. Personally I'd aim for reload time being half that of the shooting time, adjusting ROF and capacity as needed to get reasonable burst and sustained DPS.


    I agree! :D


    I know that now its done and we need to look forward, but what was the point of having to change them in a state that didn't satisfy anyone? Clearly after months in their current state, some of their main issues haven't been adressed, like ammo swapping or remaining reload time.

    So these changes have been pushed regardless of the numerous issues that would cripple a system that would still be critisized even if the features around it were working. (Remaining reload time not displayed, etc...)

    So why didn't you wait for having everything working to release these changes at once ? The only reason that I can find is that there was a serious imbalance problem, yet rapid lights haven't been touched for years. So the issue, if there was any, wasn't that urgent.


    Now talking about their stats, I still believe that this burst thing is a bad idea. Voluntarily creating times of inactivity is not an improvement, its a regression.

    What was wrong with the last interation anyway ? Why isn't it possible to get a whole missile rebalance all at once and be done with it?
    Or just to turn rapid lights stats into the stats of light missile launchers, but mounted on cruisers? Eventually with a shortened range.

    Edit : And yes, rapid lights could use a buff to flight speed and a nerf to flight time to be able to catch with some snake-fitted interceptors. Even by using a very expensive, flight speed rigged Cerberus, its nowhere near effective against a 7km/sec unheated crow.
    The problem is not really the crow because to be able to reach such speeds it will have an anemic dps and tank anyway, and won't be able to point anything for more than a few seconds... But it goes so fast that it litterally cannot be killed by anything. Just like an annoying bug. Rapid lights could be the solution if they were, well, "rapid".

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

    #7 - 2014-01-21 12:05:35 UTC
    I will agree with others that 35secs is still a long time to be doing nothing in a fight.
    The biggest issue with the weapons system is after doing your DPS you end up in the same situation as when under the effects of ECM, sitting watching and doing nothing in the fight.

    When people are playing a game like EVE in PVP they want fast moment to moment reactions and control in a fight, long waiting periods where you effectively useless are the worst ideas in MMOs, this is the same reason you see people frustrated over stun-locks in other games.

    Since the changes Rapid Missiles have also been worthless in PVE where's they used to be a fantastic weapons system for newbies getting into a Caracal and running L1 or L2 missions.

    It's nice to see the work being put into them after their changes and them not just becoming another changed with no later support but the long waiting periods is still the issue stopping most from wanting to use them.

    Turelus CEO Utassi Security

    Minmatar Republic
    #8 - 2014-01-21 12:06:38 UTC
    Nice to see you're still working hard on trying to find a most optimal solution for these launchers. Although the changes are small, they're still welcome.
    Minmatar Republic
    #9 - 2014-01-21 12:15:42 UTC
    CCP Rise: Okay we'll shorten it by 5 seconds.

    Players: NO! 20 SECONDS!

    CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

    Players: 20 SECONDS!

    CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

    Players: 20 SECONDS!

    CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

    Players: 20 SECONDS!

    CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

    Players: 20 SECONDS!

    CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

    Players: 20 SECONDS!

    * CCP Rise has left the conversation.
    Medalyn Isis
    #10 - 2014-01-21 12:17:16 UTC
    I really like the sound of these rapid missile launchers. Going to have to try them out and see what they are like in practice as have not had a chance yet. Nice idea though, I like the concept of doing massive burst damage and then a long reload time.
    Medalyn Isis
    #11 - 2014-01-21 12:21:38 UTC
    Turelus wrote:

    When people are playing a game like EVE in PVP they want fast moment to moment reactions and control in a fight, long waiting periods where you effectively useless are the worst ideas in MMOs, this is the same reason you see people frustrated over stun-locks in other games.

    This is Eve, not WOW. I'm sure most Eve players are patient enough to realise that despite a long reload time they are still doing good dps and massive burst damage which is sometimes more useful particularly in situation where you need to break past a shield recharge rate or surprising an enemy.

    The way you describe it is as if Eve players are sugar infused 12 year olds foaming at the mouths because there are no pretty explosions happening on the screen for 35 seconds.
    #12 - 2014-01-21 12:23:21 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    I really like the sound of these rapid missile launchers. Going to have to try them out and see what they are like in practice as have not had a chance yet. Nice idea though, I like the concept of doing massive burst damage and then a long reload time.

    I'm not sure you will enjoy the reload time if your target is still alive and you're sat watching yourself dying still.
    The same with any time you wish to change ammo type before a fight, you will be waiting 35 seconds before being able to go and start the fight with the right damage type.

    I do agree go and try them, but they sound much better on paper than they are enjoyable in real time use.

    Turelus CEO Utassi Security

    Tactical-Retreat
    #13 - 2014-01-21 12:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Medalyn Isis wrote:

    This is Eve, not WOW. I'm sure most Eve players are patient enough to realise that despite a long reload time they are still doing good dps and massive burst damage which is sometimes more useful particularly in situation where you need to break past a shield recharge rate or surprising an enemy.

    The way you describe it is as if Eve players are sugar infused 12 year olds foaming at the mouths because there are no pretty explosions happening on the screen for 35 seconds.


    I'm not a sugar infused 12 years old child nor a WOW player, yet I find it infuriating to have to wait 40 seconds in the middle of a fight doing nothing. And I'm proud of claiming it. Roll

    Edit : While we are at it, I could say that everyone happy to spend 40 seconds doing nothing in a fight is probably a bot or an arthritic grandmother half-asleep. See ? This logic is pointless and applies both way. Except that since we are talking about a game, inaction will always be the wrong game-design decision.

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

    #14 - 2014-01-21 12:35:04 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    Turelus wrote:

    When people are playing a game like EVE in PVP they want fast moment to moment reactions and control in a fight, long waiting periods where you effectively useless are the worst ideas in MMOs, this is the same reason you see people frustrated over stun-locks in other games.

    This is Eve, not WOW. I'm sure most Eve players are patient enough to realise that despite a long reload time they are still doing good dps and massive burst damage which is sometimes more useful particularly in situation where you need to break past a shield recharge rate or surprising an enemy.

    The way you describe it is as if Eve players are sugar infused 12 year olds foaming at the mouths because there are no pretty explosions happening on the screen for 35 seconds.

    I'm sure EVE players are patient enough the problem is in EVE a fast kill is normally a better kill.
    35 Seconds where you can't apply any DPS is time your opponent can.
    * Repair any damage if active tanked.
    * Nuet more of you cap if using neuts.
    * Get more cycles on ECM mods/drones if they're being used, if one of these lands at the 34 seconds mark ... ouch!
    * Call in reinforcements if the fights not going well.
    * Have adaptive hardeners adjust to your damage type.
    * Continue to damage your ships making a close fight not so close.

    Adding all that to the fact missiles are not greatest of weapons systems in all cases any way and it's too much of a gamble for most people to want to use. There was a vast amounts of feedback and pointing out the flaws before the initial changes were made (the major one being we can't switch damage types more than once a minute) but the missiles were pushed out any way and to my knowledge been a flop.

    Turelus CEO Utassi Security

    Caldari State
    #15 - 2014-01-21 12:36:35 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    Turelus wrote:

    When people are playing a game like EVE in PVP they want fast moment to moment reactions and control in a fight, long waiting periods where you effectively useless are the worst ideas in MMOs, this is the same reason you see people frustrated over stun-locks in other games.

    This is Eve, not WOW. I'm sure most Eve players are patient enough to realise that despite a long reload time they are still doing good dps and massive burst damage which is sometimes more useful particularly in situation where you need to break past a shield recharge rate or surprising an enemy.

    The way you describe it is as if Eve players are sugar infused 12 year olds foaming at the mouths because there are no pretty explosions happening on the screen for 35 seconds.


    Physically they may be older than 12, but mentally/emotionally ..... I'm not so sure sometimes.
    Tactical-Retreat
    #16 - 2014-01-21 12:41:20 UTC
    Kitty Bear wrote:


    Physically they may be older than 12, but mentally/emotionally ..... I'm not so sure sometimes.


    Yeah, I even heard that some of them are making posts that only consist in insulting the community. Yes yes, it exists...


    On a more serious note, I hope that the winter summit brings a new light on what the hell happened during the rapid missiles rebalances to be so bad where other iterations have been much better.

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

    Gallente Federation
    #17 - 2014-01-21 12:45:20 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hello

    I posted an update recently in the old rapid missile thread on this topic but I assume many of you haven't been watching that so I'm making a new thread for the time being with some updates for 1.1.

    The basic gist is that we aren't satisfied with some of the pain points resulting from the change (especially ammo swapping) and want to continue to iterate until they are in the best possible place. For this patch we weren't able to get in a fix for the ammo swapping. We tried a few versions and all of them had enough issues that we didn't feel comfortable deploying. For 1.1 we are going to do the following:

  • All rapid missile launchers will have 35 second reload timers rather than 40 seconds
  • Rapid Light Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 20 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 19 missiles per magazine for tech 1
  • Rapid Heavy Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 25 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 24 missiles per magazine for tech 1

  • This change is meant to increase their power slightly, and make them feel a little better to use by cutting down the reload time.

    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them, so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months. Large changes are still on the table and I won't be finished with this until we address the ammo swapping issue.

    Thanks for reading and responding



    It's still way too long, the initial reaction is still valid but I guess many people just gave up complaining becasue you wouldn't give in. Well, apparently you still want to have this extremely long reload time and the ammo type issue is still on the table. I'd ask for a higher velocity on rapid missiles to make them at least faster get to the target plus I'd welcome an omni-dmg bonus in contrast to the current kinetic dmg on the cerberus.

    But in general, let's nerf missiles a bit further for pvp, they're used all over the place...not.
    The Tuskers Co.
    #18 - 2014-01-21 12:56:50 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them

    Would you mind sharing the data you're basing this claim on? While I certainly don't have access to all your metrics, the sales volumes for RLMLs in Jita strongly suggest that this is not the case - they've been trending downwards pretty steadily since Rubicon 1.0.

    Regardless, I suspect that this change is basically sticking lipstick on a pig; the problem isn't so much their overall dps as that there's no way to make long weapon reloads fun. Pair that with the fact that the ammo switching problem is unresolved and I don't see this doing anything to change the current picture; there'll be a brief spike in sales and usage that will persist for a week or two as people investigate the changes and then things will return to their slow decline as players realise that the weapons are still very poor for general use and the core mechanic is extremely unenjoyable.
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #19 - 2014-01-21 12:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhir
    If the 35sec reload is such a huge deal, how come ECM haven't been removed from the game yet? It leaves you unable to do anything for the next 20 sec.

    The initial changes to RLML were probably too much, so with this little buff I actually think that RLML are exactly what they are supposed to be. They are a support weapon rather than a main weapon and the burst can be quite good if you know how to use it. If you fly an antitackle caracal in a nano fleet you can easily blap the enemy tackle fast which leaves your fleet in a very good position.

    If you are doing nothing during those 35sec you are doing it wrong. The 'burst and then reload' gameplay the RLML offers allows you to take advantage of many things. You can use the reload time to fall back and get repped up while you during the shooting time can play offensive. The reload time can also be spend to reposition yourself. You can also tackle stuff!

    Still, if you don't like the new gameplay of the RLML, there is nothing that stops you from fitting HAMs or HMLs. But if you really want sustained dps against a smaller target you can also just split your RLML into 2 group and let one of them fire while the other one reloads. Problem solved. And if Gypsio's calculations are correct then you will end up with 90% dps of the old RLML. Which is fine since the old RLML was op. Anyone who has knowledge about pvp tactics would know that having the option to do burst is better than just getting a flat 10% dps reduction.

    The only downside is the inability to switch ammotypes without the long reload.

    But I think this is just a good old case of HTFU.

    ❤️️💛💚💙💜

    #20 - 2014-01-21 13:02:17 UTC
    Turelus wrote:

    I'm sure EVE players are patient enough the problem is in EVE a fast kill is normally a better kill.
    35 Seconds where you can't apply any DPS is time your opponent can.
    * Repair any damage if active tanked.
    * Nuet more of you cap if using neuts.
    * Get more cycles on ECM mods/drones if they're being used, if one of these lands at the 34 seconds mark ... ouch!
    * Call in reinforcements if the fights not going well.
    * Have adaptive hardeners adjust to your damage type.
    * Continue to damage your ships making a close fight not so close.


    Yes, but your comparison ist wrong here!
    The new RLML ARE the fast kill.
    After the initial 20 missiles, your enemy should be dead, that ist the point!

    If he is not, then you are doing it wrong.
    All the things (the neuts, the reinforcements, the repairs) would have happened to your old-style Caracal as well, because that one would not have killed the target in the first 40 seconds either. And most likely not in the reload time of the new version either.
    The only difference might have been that you seee all the time some of your missiles heading towards the enemy ship and get a warm fuzzy feeling while dying.
    Choose another weapon system with lower burst and higher sustained DPS before you tackle heavier targets.

    Oh, and reactive hardeners do not adapt anywhere if you do not continuously apply damage.
    38 Pages123Next pageLast page
    Forum Jump