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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Goonswarm Federation
#1821 - 2014-01-21 16:50:33 UTC
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1822 - 2014-01-21 16:52:04 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.


so then all the ess holds is the 20% of the isk that i would have made?




The ESS holds 15.7% of the ISK you would have made, plus an additional 5.2% to 10.5%

Going by the adjusted figures for what you would have made without one. (with the 95% adjustment to the base figure)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

#1823 - 2014-01-21 16:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
I don't understand why people who were opposed to the ESS before suddenly now love the idea. These changes fix nothing; stop trying to polish a turd - it's still just a turd.

There's no mention of rolling back the 95%/80% nerf to nullsec ratting income, so most of the changes in your post are irrelevant since ESSs will still be KOS to all major alliances and no ratter in his right mind is going to deploy one. No one is going to risk 20% of their ratting income for a measly LP payout, especially since if everyone used an ESS that LP would soon be worthless. Lowering the price and upgrading the EHP are stupid "shooting structures is fun!" changes. 120 seconds is still 480 too short - minimum. I would be pissed about you trying to devalue LP for both highsec and nullsec, but since no one is going to use this, hopefully that will be avoided.

tl;dr - the fundamental concepts behind this deployable as still present and deeply flawed and none of these minor changes fixes that, if it even can be fixed. You would still be far better served simply scrapping the ESS entirely and going back to the drawing board instead of continuing to try to force this piece of trash down our throats.


Yeah, you're kinda fighting against windmills here.

First of all: don‘t you see that it‘s all the more seducing to use this module, the more nullsec alliances are trying to boycott it? Because if nobody BUT ME uses it, the better for me! Cause I‘m earning additional LP now, and you don‘t.

Second, the LP payout itself seems to be quite okay. Assuming a nullbear now earns 30m ISK for each hour ratting, after the change the following will happen:

NO ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income nerfed to 28.5m ISK.
No additional benefits or frills.

ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income lowered to 24m ISK.
Additional 3,600 to 4,800 LP directly to LP wallet.
6-7.5m ISK go into ESS.

Given current navy LP values (c. 800 ISK/LP) this sums up to c. 32.9m to 35.3m, depending on how long the ESS has been deployed and not cashed out. This is a potential buff of 9.7 to 17.7 percent to nullbear income.

But most important of all: this ratter will potentially earn 25% more than a ratter who doesn't deploy an ESS. That‘s kind of a motivation :D
C C P Alliance
#1824 - 2014-01-21 16:54:55 UTC
Just wanted to put out an official clarification on a few points:

1) The ISK adjustments are the same as before. Without an ESS you'll get 95% value, with an ESS you get 80% directly and 20-25% are accessible through the ESS.

2) The Loyalty Points are paid directly to the ratting player. No LPs are stored/available in the ESS.

3) The warp disruption effect put on ships interacting with the ESS is in addition to the bubble.

4) Interacting with the ESS immediately gives you the option to either Share or Take all. Once either is selected a timer starts (length determined by choice), when timer finishes the system pool is emptied.
C C P Alliance
#1825 - 2014-01-21 16:55:55 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?


It uses the total amount, so its based on 1m
The Bastard Cartel
#1826 - 2014-01-21 17:00:41 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:


The ESS holds 15.7% of the ISK you would have made, plus an additional 5.2% to 10.5%

Going by the adjusted figures for what you would have made without one. (with the 95% adjustment to the base figure)


While your percentage changes in income are technically right, it is my understanding that NPC bounties will still say 100k isk and only pay out 95k isk (no ess) or 80k isk & 15-20 LP with the ess with an additional 20-25k isk stored in the ESS. I think putting it this way is easier for players to understand.


Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?


Again, the bounties listed on the rat are not changing.

If you kill a 100k isk NPC rat:

Without ESS, you get paied 95k isk.

With the ESS, your immediate payout will be 80k isk, and 15-20 LP (the payout is based on the rats posted bounty). 20k-25k isk will be stored in the ESS for later distribution.
The Bastard Cartel
#1827 - 2014-01-21 17:02:53 UTC
A few questions:
-- Can two people attempt to access the ESS at the same time?

-- Outside of being ward disrupted, will accessing the ESS cause combat hindering popups and the like?

-- After the 3 Minute access period, how long does it take the ESS to drop the isk-tags? (is 3 minutes enough time for the locals to form up and defend the ESS from a hostile inty stealing your stuff?)

-- Can I park an alt on the ESS, with the share all button open and ready to be pressed, such that I can hit press all the moment someone comes into system?

-- What happens when you stop interacting with the ESS: Are you still warp disrupted? For example, if I land on the ESS and hit share all (20s later), can I then warp off, or must I burn away first and/or scoop the ESS?

-- How can your opponent stop you from interacting with the ESS? Example Scenario: Let's say we bring in a fleet into system and the ratters get safe. They then warp a noobship alt directly to the ESS with the goal of hitting share all and distributing the income within. I don't get notification that this is happening until the noobship is on top of the ESS, at which point I have 20 seconds to warp to the ESS and stop them from hitting the share all feature. Does this not seem too short to anyone else, especially if I have to blow up their ship to accomplish this?

-- Can I access the ESS in a pod?

-- Can these be deployed in NPC nullsec? I was under the impression they could.

-- Can is immediately scoop the ESS upon landing, removing the beacon in local and not have to worry about warp disruption?

-- Is the warp disruption mechanic targeted, meaning I can no longer cloak if it is "disrupting" me?
#1828 - 2014-01-21 17:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Hm… No. I think the bounties displayed on the rat info screen will be exactly the amount that‘s valid for the current payout level. Without ESS deployed a 100k rat will show 95k. Everything else would be very confusing, I guess.
#1829 - 2014-01-21 17:06:52 UTC
I have been on the test server using both the mobile jump drive and the RSI [scan inhibitor]. As a fwer the fact that they can be used inside plexes is pretty good.. The RSI should probably last longer, as depending on the final price of them if they get released, using it for a prolonged gate camp is not as viable. The mobile jump drive outside of a plex, is probably not as viable due to the fact that it has such low hp.

Havn't had the chance to test the ess yet.
#1830 - 2014-01-21 17:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
On second thought… that‘s kinda confusing.

I think in their info rats should display exactly the right (current) bounty. Therefore it would have to show the amount of ISK that‘s going straight to your wallet, as well as the amount of ISK that‘s gonna get stored in the ESS module, as well as the amount of LP gained by killing it.

But I think that‘s quite difficult to show in the info window. Therefore it might be more suitable to only show the exact amount of ISK that will go directly to your wallet, if you shoot this rat. Without ESS deployed this would be 95k for a current 100k rat, and with ESS deployed it would be 80k.

Players who deploy an ESS do know what‘s happening here, and everybody else in the system can see the ESS module on the overview. If the overview beacon of the ESS shows some info about the storage of additional ISK in this module, as well as direct LP payout, everything should be fine.
Snuffed Out
#1831 - 2014-01-21 17:18:39 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?


It uses the total amount, so its based on 1m


So are we just going to ignore people who realize what a disaster this is going to be for LP valuations?
The Bastard Cartel
#1832 - 2014-01-21 17:24:39 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?


It uses the total amount, so its based on 1m


So are we just going to ignore people who realize what a disaster this is going to be for LP valuations?


Meh... L5 Mission runners deserve a boon if their LP income is undermined...
Gallente Federation
#1833 - 2014-01-21 17:26:05 UTC
I see nullsec is getting another buff, as expected. Any plans to unerf high-sec? Maybe add Concord LP per every rat killed?
Bear
#1834 - 2014-01-21 17:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrence Malick
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases.


Is this pre-reduction or post-reduction? i.e. if I kill a rat worth 1m isk now, but 800k with the ESS, for the LP reward formula is it worth 1m or 800k?


It uses the total amount, so its based on 1m


So are we just going to ignore people who realize what a disaster this is going to be for LP valuations?


What disaster? I was under the impression that nullsec alliances are going to ban those modules from their space!
Amarr Empire
#1835 - 2014-01-21 17:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Why have you maintained the 5% nerf to bounties even when it was demonstrated that it was unnecessary and that your reasons for doing so were utterly false?

Saying "we're going to take away 5% of your bounties to force you to use this new module" is not sandbox at all. It's not player-driven content. It's an artificially forced game mechanic.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Amarr Empire
#1836 - 2014-01-21 17:39:05 UTC
And when are you going to significantly increase the number of anomalies per system which desperately needs to be done?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Caldari State
#1837 - 2014-01-21 17:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
My take on the thing:

It costs 25m. Assume 1 LP = 1300 ISK. I think this is a favorable assumption for the ESS. Assume LP gain = .19 so isk from LP = .25. assume the flat isk gain from ess is .24.

The four outcomes I can see of using an ESS are:

1) Successful retrieve of ESS module with all bonus ISK.

Income without ESS = .95 in wallet

Income with ESS = .8 in wallet + .25 isk in lp in wallet + .24 isk in ESS = 1.29

1.29 / .95 = 1.36 income modifier vs no ESS.

2) Successful retrieve of ESS module but not the bonus ISK.

This is just the ratio of isk in your wallet. So 1.05 / .95 = 1.11x

3) ESS was destroyed but you received "almost all" bonus ISK (you managed to share recently before a gang came in to destroy the ESS)

This is more complicated since it is dependent on how much you have farmed. We can simply consider the difference in profit and look at the break even point to get a quick idea.

This would happen about when you would have farmed 70m ISK without an ESS, or 95m value with an ESS. When this would happen would depend on how quickly rats spawned in the system and what they were worth...

4) ESS was destroyed and all bonus ISK is stolen

So it is like 3) except there is no bonus ISK.

The break even point becomes astronomical, around 275m isk/lp farmed before it happens.
#1838 - 2014-01-21 17:42:33 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

1) The ISK adjustments are the same as before. Without an ESS you'll get 95% value, with an ESS you get 80% directly and 20-25% are accessible through the ESS.

That's a shame to hear because it was (and still is) one of the biggest issues with anyone wanting to use one of these structures. With this gambling on the ISK it still seems that the module will most likely end up not being used.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
4) Interacting with the ESS immediately gives you the option to either Share or Take all. Once either is selected a timer starts (length determined by choice), when timer finishes the system pool is emptied.

Under this system I can see players sitting a rookie corp alt on the ESS seeing intel blink with a red one jump out, hitting claim and then docking their main up with no care if the alt doesn't make it out before the red kills them. They would receive the ISK due then their alt would reclone in station (presumably in system) with no care to being killed/podded.


CCP SoniClover would you also be able to answer the following?

* How feasible it would be to have the LP for a corporation not already in the game with a set choice of rewards (meaning current LP stores can keep some valued items).

* LP store services in NullSec stations/outposts meaning we can cash in our LP without a return trip to Empire (this would be very useful in getting new attribute implants out in NullSec)

* Is it possible or even feasible that attacking players would need to use the hacking mini-game to steal the LP giving Cov-Ops, T3 and SoE ships a more anti-player PVP role.

* Having the ESS be sold via LP stores in Empire so current mission runners have something new to sell and adding a new Empire/NullSec link where each benefits from the others needs.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

RvB - BLUE Republic
#1839 - 2014-01-21 17:45:16 UTC
Can someone activate the shorter timer while someone else is activating the longer timer?

Does the new warp disruption effect only happen while the character is accessing the ESS (e.g. while the window is open?)
Amarr Empire
#1840 - 2014-01-21 17:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekkr Nordgard
Tahnil wrote:

Yeah, you're kinda fighting against windmills here.

First of all: don‘t you see that it‘s all the more seducing to use this module, the more nullsec alliances are trying to boycott it? Because if nobody BUT ME uses it, the better for me! Cause I‘m earning additional LP now, and you don‘t.

Second, the LP payout itself seems to be quite okay. Assuming a nullbear now earns 30m ISK for each hour ratting, after the change the following will happen:

NO ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income nerfed to 28.5m ISK.
No additional benefits or frills.

ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income lowered to 24m ISK.
Additional 3,600 to 4,800 LP directly to LP wallet.
6-7.5m ISK go into ESS.

Given current navy LP values (c. 800 ISK/LP) this sums up to c. 32.9m to 35.3m, depending on how long the ESS has been deployed and not cashed out. This is a potential buff of 9.7 to 17.7 percent to nullbear income.

But most important of all: this ratter will potentially earn 25% more than a ratter who doesn't deploy an ESS. That‘s kind of a motivation :D


Those LP values are the current values. Any widespread use of this deployable in nullsec will quickly devalue already low value LP meaning that nullsec players making less ISK is built into the success of this deployable. This is my FW character, I know all about LP devaluation.

As repeatedly pointed out in this thread, an average system can only support 3 to 5 ratters in PvE ships trying to make ISK not PvPing. The rewards of this deployable are insufficient to force these 3 to 5 players to deploy and risk having to reship to PvP ships and try to fight usually outnumbered or outgunned by the red/neut roaming gang who probably are better organized and have more PvP experience too. Risking 20% of your income for a chance of a small reward that you will lose all of if a even a small roaming gang comes through is more than enough to result in this deployable's banning thoroughout most of nullsec.

If you want to use this deployable, then by all menas please do. In fact, I encourage it. Because it will quickly become known who uses ESSes and who doesn't and roaming gangs are going to spend far more time in territory that use these. So in the end, ratters not using these will make far more ISK because they'll be out ratting while those groups using ESSes will be defensive PvPing or docked up.

Edit: Additionally, that added value is in LP which requires getting back to highsec to use and setting up sell orders to get full value from, which makes it far less attractive to nullsec players than pure ISK in bounties.
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