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Does Eve need new players?

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#121 - 2014-02-20 09:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Veteran MTU? :)


Very funny, but you can only ignore the real kills to deny my claim. Such as the Gnosis I recently solo'd in Irmalin, flown by an '06 toon (I'm a 2012, single account, no boosts), while tanking him and a Tengu. I lost my own Gnosis to the Tengu, but not before my friends had arrived to finish him off. But, how did I kill that Gnosis alone, my friends still enroute, if SP is the sole contributing factor? Please explain.

I might just add that I'm not skilled for T2 medium guns - the Gnosis I used to beat him was using meta 4s.

*Killmails linked for the purpose of making a point, not for the purpose of bragging or flaming. This point needs to be made as obvious as possible due to IZ's nature to ignore realities she doesn't want to admit lest they prove her wrong.
Magic?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

#122 - 2014-02-20 09:08:53 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Veteran MTU? :)


Very funny, but you can only ignore the real kills to deny my claim. Such as the Gnosis I recently solo'd in Irmalin, flown by an '06 toon (I'm a 2012, single account, no boosts), while tanking him and a Tengu. I lost my own Gnosis to the Tengu, but not before my friends had arrived to finish him off. But, how did I kill that Gnosis alone, my friends still enroute, if SP is the sole contributing factor? Please explain.

I might just add that I'm not skilled for T2 medium guns - the Gnosis I used to beat him was using meta 4s.

*Killmails linked for the purpose of making a point, not for the purpose of bragging or flaming. This point needs to be made as obvious as possible due to IZ's nature to ignore realities she doesn't want to admit lest they prove her wrong.
Magic?


Yeah.... tracking disruptors are a bit magic, aren't they? Blink

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

#123 - 2014-02-20 09:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Magic?


Yeah.... tracking disruptors are a bit magic, aren't they? Blink
Shh, Ziona might learn something.

Edit: I even posted that with a straight face. Straight

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Gallente Federation
#124 - 2014-02-20 10:53:06 UTC
Eve is just like life but without the rules to keep the d*ckheads in line. You learn to adapt and move on no matter how impossible it seems.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.

#125 - 2014-02-20 10:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
1. You can never catch up to the older players. Yes the ships are divided into specific skill capped areas
…which means that you not only can “catch up”, it's actually very easy and, ultimately, inevitable. Even beyond single ship setups, sooner or later, that older player will run out of skills to train that help him in any meaningful way.

The old player can only ever put ~30M SP into a single T1 cruiser. Once you have the same 30M SP, you have caught up. The tricky part is that this is actually a pretty bad idea, when you can just put ⅕ of that SP towards something that makes that entire 30M-block of his completely irrelevant and useless.

All in all, “catching up” is hardly even an applicable concept to the EVE skill system.

Quote:
CCP took steps to nerf out of control ganking, when it got to pandemic levels like it is now they would implement nerfs to reduce it to a level so that it was under control.
It was never at “pandemic levels” and it is pathetically rare right now.
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-02-20 16:37:42 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Ok, so I will get ready for the flames...
But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. Personally, I don't care what my toon is wearing. I'm more interested in what is going on outside the station.

I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Not a big deal in itself, but the problem is that many players get their jollies by preying on the new players. And fuel their sense of keyboard based superiority by calling them carebears, telling them that Eve is brutal, get over it, etc.

Now if these players roam into lowsec where there is an expectation of being attacked, then sure, that's their fault. But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.

I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players. Someone who is logged into the game 20 hours a day war decced the training corp so he could attack them in high sec. Funny thing is, this person only comes out of station in the nice tech 3 ships he has to attack the players when they are alone. When approached by several of the corps ships, he stays right next to station and docks up as soon as he drops to hull. Won't come out if there are more than 3 or 4 of the corps members online. So while this person overwhelms this corps players when they are alone, the kills get the attention of other corps that act the same way, so a training corp ends up getting multiple war decs in high sec. So their only option is to stay docked up. So they end up paying for a game they can't play because a lot of other players can't get their jollies by "picking on someone their own size" essentially.

And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game. Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players? Not every player who could be paying for the game and promoting the development is going to be able to devote the time needed to become a null sec pirate. But these players benefit the game in many ways. Can the game survive if the majority of players are able to play for free by selling plex? Someone without the time to farm isk is going to have to pay actual money for time, and that money is what keeps CCP developing. Is it going to be much fun when driving away new and potential players results in the game dying off?

Ok, let the flaming begin.

If any game corp or alliance is not growing or expanding then it is dying.
The Initiative.
#127 - 2014-02-20 16:41:10 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Ok, so I will get ready for the flames...
But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. Personally, I don't care what my toon is wearing. I'm more interested in what is going on outside the station.

I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Not a big deal in itself, but the problem is that many players get their jollies by preying on the new players. And fuel their sense of keyboard based superiority by calling them carebears, telling them that Eve is brutal, get over it, etc.

Now if these players roam into lowsec where there is an expectation of being attacked, then sure, that's their fault. But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.

I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players. Someone who is logged into the game 20 hours a day war decced the training corp so he could attack them in high sec. Funny thing is, this person only comes out of station in the nice tech 3 ships he has to attack the players when they are alone. When approached by several of the corps ships, he stays right next to station and docks up as soon as he drops to hull. Won't come out if there are more than 3 or 4 of the corps members online. So while this person overwhelms this corps players when they are alone, the kills get the attention of other corps that act the same way, so a training corp ends up getting multiple war decs in high sec. So their only option is to stay docked up. So they end up paying for a game they can't play because a lot of other players can't get their jollies by "picking on someone their own size" essentially.

And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game. Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players? Not every player who could be paying for the game and promoting the development is going to be able to devote the time needed to become a null sec pirate. But these players benefit the game in many ways. Can the game survive if the majority of players are able to play for free by selling plex? Someone without the time to farm isk is going to have to pay actual money for time, and that money is what keeps CCP developing. Is it going to be much fun when driving away new and potential players results in the game dying off?

Ok, let the flaming begin.


Can you name an MMO where the long established players don't have a big advantage? Because progression is a core theme of every MMO I have ever heard of, and where you have progression then by the very definition of the term you have an advantage over those who have not yet made that progress.

Incidentally, new subs are through the roof at the moment.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

#128 - 2014-02-20 16:47:48 UTC
EVE doesn't need new players. EVE needs people who will fit in to the community we've built.

CCP has intentionally said they keep things the way they are in order to "filter" out people who won't make good additions to our community. It works mostly well, with a few exceptions.

One dedicated multi-year subscriber is worth a lot more than 5 new guys who sub for one month, experience all the content in-game, then quit.


IIRC, the prime number CCP looks at to decide how "good" they are doing, sub-wise, is the 3-6 month churn rate. So long as that number stays good, EVE is healthy.

This link is quite informative, in understanding how CCP seeks out new subs.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Divine Entervention
#129 - 2014-02-20 17:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
No one protects the new people.

Going through most of this thread, more people are going on about how it's OK and acceptable to spend your time griefing someone. That's it's not indicative of your personality flaws when you choose to be an aggravater.

I disagree. I feel if it's your choice to try and bring unenjoyment to others, it's an attempt for you to feel good about yourself because you yourself are living in a state where you feel unfulfilled.

I don't know, maybe you're sad your boss tells you to do work. Maybe you're mad your teacher picks on you and demands you do your homework. Maybe Chad, being alot better at that sport you enjoy really upsets you and you feel better when you transfer your misery to someone else.

I don't know why, or what really . . . . but the evidence is clear that way more people are willing to try and be a **** than offer a helping hand.

You're selfish. Too many of you are selfish.

I don't know of any corporations who've established an intention to be an active anti-criminal corporation, seeking those out who choose to be pit of negativity regarding human interaction. If they do exist, well they're not doing a good job.

It's really easy to prey on the weak. Instead of repeating the same phrases over and over regarding why you do what you do to justify it, why don't you take the path less traveled?

Stop picking on the weak, and prey upon those who choose to do so.

You wont though . . . . because you're not good enough, that's why you choose the weak.

*Edit* and LOL at you guys saying that in 30m skill points "words".

So basically, "in a year and half you can begin playing the game. In the mean time, just consider eve a gigantic waste of your time, but maybe in a year and a half you'll reach a point where you can determine if the time and money you spent was worth it"
New players are gimped so hard in this game.
#130 - 2014-02-20 17:32:45 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Tesco Ergo Sum wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Give all new players 30mill skill points but no isk

Now they can max out at the very least one race pvp ready to go.

Result? Who knows (no you really don't know so shut up), but there will be no more of the "I can't catch up" nonsense.

After that not a lot will change.

Are you asking for war secs to be removed? So few people rely on them that this too is also an unknown if changed.


This would never be abused to make ganking alts... NEVER!


I have almost 20 million skill points, I still can't fly **** half decent on this character, not for another year. So its not unreasonable to say that 30 mil won't affect the game, and may improve it by increasing the amount of pvp and tears.


That's just sad. I think a game with elves might be better suited.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

#131 - 2014-02-20 18:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Divine Entervention wrote:
No one protects the new people.
Wrong, we just don't mollycoddle them. Eve is harsh, mollycoddling newbies does them no favours.

Quote:
Going through most of this thread, more people are going on about how it's OK and acceptable to spend your time griefing someone. That's it's not indicative of your personality flaws when you choose to be an aggravater.

I disagree. I feel if it's your choice to try and bring unenjoyment to others, it's an attempt for you to feel good about yourself because you yourself are living in a state where you feel unfulfilled.

I don't know, maybe you're sad your boss tells you to do work. Maybe you're mad your teacher picks on you and demands you do your homework. Maybe Chad, being alot better at that sport you enjoy really upsets you and you feel better when you transfer your misery to someone else.
CAUTION - Internet psychologist/ psychiatrist at work - CAUTION.

Eve is a game, one where your real life morals are a weakness to be exploited.

Quote:
I don't know why, or what really . . . . but the evidence is clear that way more people are willing to try and be a **** than offer a helping hand.
Human nature, we're a competitive species, the strong generally prevail, the meek cry into their OJ. That's as true in the real world as it is in Eve. That said humanity is a contradiction, we'll quite happily massacre each other by the million, while at the same time try to feed and house those less well off than ourselves.

Quote:
You're selfish. Too many of you are selfish.

I don't know of any corporations who've established an intention to be an active anti-criminal corporation, seeking those out who choose to be pit of negativity regarding human interaction. If they do exist, well they're not doing a good job.

It's really easy to prey on the weak. Instead of repeating the same phrases over and over regarding why you do what you do to justify it, why don't you take the path less traveled?

Stop picking on the weak, and prey upon those who choose to do so.

You wont though . . . . because you're not good enough, that's why you choose the weak.
That's your opinion, opinions are like farts, if it's not yours, it stinks.

A lot of Eve players are most generous when it comes to newbies, even the players that will happily reallocate the sum total of your endeavours through the medium of explosions. I've lost count of the amount of good advice, ships and money I've seen thrown at newbies, by pirates, gankers and corpies and even in the NPC corps.

Quote:
*Edit* and LOL at you guys saying that in 30m skill points "words".

So basically, "in a year and half you can begin playing the game. In the mean time, just consider eve a gigantic waste of your time, but maybe in a year and a half you'll reach a point where you can determine if the time and money you spent was worth it"
New players are gimped so hard in this game.
That's the OPs complaint, I haven't seen many posters saying that it's true, probably because it's blatantly not, A newbie can be combat effective within hours of starting the game, they'll certainly die a lot, but they'll be respected for it.

Besides who doesn't love a newbie in a frigate that's willing to go balls to the wall to get point on someone else? Hero tackle is an essential part of any decent PvP fleet, and are just as important as DPS and Logistics pilots.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

#132 - 2014-02-20 18:22:25 UTC
Quote:
I don't know of any corporations who've established an intention to be an active anti-criminal corporation, seeking those out who choose to be pit of negativity regarding human interaction. If they do exist, well they're not doing a good job.


Mostly because I, and people like me, make it a point to stamp them out as quickly as possible. Instead of complaining that one doesn't exist, how about you do it yourself? What's stopping you?

Quote:
It's really easy to prey on the weak. Instead of repeating the same phrases over and over regarding why you do what you do to justify it, why don't you take the path less traveled?


Given some of the hatemail I have gotten, I already have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

#133 - 2014-02-20 18:29:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Besides who doesn't love a newbie in a frigate that's willing to go balls to the wall to get point on someone else? Hero tackle is an essential part of any decent PvP fleet, and are just as important as DPS and Logistics pilots.



There is NOTHING better than being in-fleet with a fresh new guy who nails his first tackle on a "vet". The excited awesomeness and optimism is just infectious.

As for there not being "anti-criminal" organizations...well, they burn out. They take EVE so very seriously, equating a database number designated by arbitrary game rules as an actual value of a person's worth (Sec status, BTW). Most cool "anti-pirates" end up switching sides, because, honestly, we're nicer. We take newbies out to cause explosions and get the blood pumping, starter corp "vets" whine about how evil people are, and how boring EVE is.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Destination SkillQueue
#134 - 2014-02-20 20:05:43 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
#135 - 2014-02-20 22:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bantara
mbiz schnitzel wrote:
Thats what makes RPGs cool. And noobs have an super functional role by learning frigates for fleets.

I'm sorry, did you say RPG? Where? What little rpg elements Eve-O had--bloodlines and schools meaning something, racial requirements for corps--they removed long ago.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gonna have to stop you there. EVE has grown in subs every year since it began.

Oh lord, not that questionable point again. With the proliferation of multiple accounts, who cares if it has more subs. What any game needs is players, not just subs.

Karon Grandolf wrote:
I believe new players may experience that as well, and as the gameplay becomes more homogenous the playerbase will be as well.


wise words...

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Eve is a game, one where your real life morals are a weakness to be exploited.


Eve is a game, a place where so many expect you to abandon your rl morals, which makes sticking to them even more important and more noticeable.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Human nature, we're a competitive species, the strong generally prevail, the meek cry into their OJ. That's as true in the real world as it is in Eve. That said humanity is a contradiction, we'll quite happily massacre each other by the million, while at the same time try to feed and house those less well off than ourselves.


A malady, not something to be accepted with a shrug of the shoulders while you assault the weaker.
#136 - 2014-02-20 23:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Bantara wrote:

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Eve is a game, one where your real life morals are a weakness to be exploited.


Eve is a game, a place where so many expect you to abandon your rl morals, which makes sticking to them even more important and more noticeable.
I don't judge those that decide to abandon their real life morals in a virtual world, one where maintaining those morals is likely to get you deshipped.

Quote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Human nature, we're a competitive species, the strong generally prevail, the meek cry into their OJ. That's as true in the real world as it is in Eve. That said humanity is a contradiction, we'll quite happily massacre each other by the million, while at the same time try to feed and house those less well off than ourselves.


A malady, not something to be accepted with a shrug of the shoulders while you assault the weaker.
Yet it's accepted everyday, by millions of people. We're tool using apex predators, in our modern world the main predator is us, if only because we've killed off or put in zoos the majority of the other predators that that used to hunt us. Very occasionally the surviving species in the wild get their own back.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

#137 - 2014-02-20 23:18:14 UTC
Bantara wrote:

Eve is a game, a place where so many expect you to abandon your rl morals, which makes sticking to them even more important and more noticeable.


You know, I feel the same way! That's why I consider anyone who's played a multiplayer FPS a gruesome mass-murderer. Not only that, the God-complex sociopaths who play The Sims, cop murdering thugs who play GTA, and disgusting animal abusers who play Angry Birds.

And candy crush....ohh gawd you don't wanna know what I think of those perverts.....


Ladies and gentlemen, please don't abandon your morals, in order to win a game. Taking the queen in Chess just proves what a kidnapping rapist mysogynst you are!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

#138 - 2014-02-20 23:22:49 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Bantara wrote:

Eve is a game, a place where so many expect you to abandon your rl morals, which makes sticking to them even more important and more noticeable.


You know, I feel the same way! That's why I consider anyone who's played a multiplayer FPS a gruesome mass-murderer. Not only that, the God-complex sociopaths who play The Sims, cop murdering thugs who play GTA, and disgusting animal abusers who play Angry Birds.

And candy crush....ohh gawd you don't wanna know what I think of those perverts.....


Ladies and gentlemen, please don't abandon your morals, in order to win a game. Taking the queen in Chess just proves what a kidnapping rapist mysogynst you are!


Let's not even get into the horrors of Super Mario Brothers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

#139 - 2014-02-20 23:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Let's not even get into the horrors of Super Mario Brothers.
Or the mental state of people that build machines to harvest the mobs in Minecraft, or trigger a disaster deliberately in Simcity Deluxe just to see it burn.

I presume that the people holding onto their morals in Eve aren't killing NPCs in any other game or shooting each other in the face in FPS's etc.

In Eve other people are the better NPCs (mostly, some of you suck P)

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

CODE.
#140 - 2014-02-21 05:18:47 UTC
Support a noobie today, buy them a mining permit and show them www.minerbumping.com

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com

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