Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Rubicon 1.3] T1 Frigate and Cruiser Balance Pass

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Point Blank Alliance
#241 - 2014-03-04 07:10:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


The Punisher is to frigates what the Maller is to cruisers. Get a group together, back it up with logistics and perhaps links, and you have a monster. The concept just doesn't shrink down very well from the cruiser to frigate level. It's more of a lolfleet. (Who wants to run 40 14k+ EHP punisher's tonight. Guys? Guys?)


It's one of the only t1 frigates I've seen used effectively for spidertanking.

For certain values of effective.

Quote:
Buff at least one of the rifter's stats if you want it to compete with that.


Speed rather than fitting seems like the obvious candidate. Despite nominally being a combat frigate, a Rifter is essentially an attack frigate in terms of weight class. It's getting a minor buff, but even with that, an AB 200mm plate rifter is going ~1150 m/s, which is about 200 m/s slower than the slasher with a similar configuration and 25 m/s over the present state of things. Not that the Rifter should be as fast as the Slasher, but I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that it should be significantly faster in relation to other combat frigates than it is (as a point of comparison, I believe that Incursus fit you posted is almost exactly the same speed as the 200mm plate rifter is now).
Of Sound Mind
#242 - 2014-03-04 08:05:15 UTC
So, I finally checked this out on Singularity, and the Kestrel really is still too heavy, IMO: it's somewhat faster than a Merlin with its prop mod off (by around 10%, I'd say) but it's *still* slower than a Merlin with both of them running their prop mods. Now, the Merlin doesn't feel terribly fast by modern T1 frigate standards, but the Kestrel's supposed to be the fast one, as opposed to the tanky one, I thought. It'd be nice if the Kestrel could at least outrun its supposedly more tank-and-gank-oriented sibling under equal conditions.
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2014-03-04 15:34:13 UTC
Correcting a quick typo, the original post had listed +75m/s velocity for the Navitas, it's actually +80m/s

Game Designer | Team Five-0

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Shadow Cartel
#244 - 2014-03-04 15:56:05 UTC
this logistics thing is just ridiculous. I'd prefer no speed to no agility. I don't get why they can't have normal stats.
The Bastard Cartel
#245 - 2014-03-04 19:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
CCP Fozzie wrote:

CARACAL:
+0.01 inertia

Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your feedback.


As pointed out by a corp mate, I'm not really a fan of how the caracal's ROF bonus interacts with the RLML's clip size. I think a damage bonus would be much more appropriate, as it actually increases your damage output before you need to reload. The ROF bonus simply decreases the amount of time until you need to reload.

For that matter, the Bellicose could use a similar treatment.
Shadow Cartel
#246 - 2014-03-04 20:01:27 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

CARACAL:
+0.01 inertia

Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your feedback.


As pointed out by a corp mate, I'm not really a fan of how the caracal's ROF bonus interacts with the RLML's clip size. I think a damage bonus would be much more appropriate, as it actually increases your damage output before you need to reload. The ROF bonus simply decreases the amount of time until you need to reload.

For that matter, the Bellicose could use a similar treatment.


maybe rof bonuses should decrease reload time
Team Amarrica
#247 - 2014-03-04 20:06:42 UTC
That would be a nerf to HAM fits and the ten guys still using Heavies in PvE.
The Bastard Cartel
#248 - 2014-03-04 20:30:19 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

CARACAL:
+0.01 inertia

Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your feedback.


As pointed out by a corp mate, I'm not really a fan of how the caracal's ROF bonus interacts with the RLML's clip size. I think a damage bonus would be much more appropriate, as it actually increases your damage output before you need to reload. The ROF bonus simply decreases the amount of time until you need to reload.

For that matter, the Bellicose could use a similar treatment.


maybe rof bonuses should decrease reload time


This is an excellent idea!!!
The Bastard Cartel
#249 - 2014-03-04 20:33:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
That would be a nerf to HAM fits and the ten guys still using Heavies in PvE.


The 5% ROF bonus increases damage by 33%. So if it were replaced with a 5%/level Damage bonus, HAM fits would see an 8% reduction in dps. I don't know why it must be a 5% / level bonus though, as a 6% or 7% or more roundly 7.5% may all be reasonable.
Team Amarrica
#250 - 2014-03-04 20:40:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
That would be a nerf to HAM fits and the ten guys still using Heavies in PvE.


The 5% ROF bonus increases damage by 33%. So if it were replaced with a 5%/level Damage bonus, HAM fits would see an 8% reduction in dps. I don't know why it must be a 5% / level bonus though, as a 6% or 7% or more roundly 7.5% may all be reasonable.


I misread Trouser's post as 'replace'
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2014-03-04 21:01:25 UTC
The problem with balancing the punisher and the rifter is that an extra midslot counters the utility high. Mid slots allow range control while the nos/neut require said range control. Compare rifter vs slasher or punisher vs incursus. An both cases an extra web wil nullify a nos or a neut.
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2014-03-04 22:31:59 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
The problem with balancing the punisher and the rifter is that an extra midslot counters the utility high. Mid slots allow range control while the nos/neut require said range control. Compare rifter vs slasher or punisher vs incursus. An both cases an extra web wil nullify a nos or a neut.


Agreed. Small nos/neut range should be the same as web range. This is a problem that only frigates suffer from due to the increased range of medium nos/neuts. Currently mid slots are WAY more valuable than utility highs on frigates and leads to a handful of popular fits for solo frigate PVP.
Udonor
#253 - 2014-03-05 08:40:34 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the Breacher ROF change. Having the damage bonus not be type-specific meant it was one of the few ships that could actually use the missile advantage of selectable damage, and was very versatile. I really enjoyed flying the Breacher during the Stay Frosty Frigate FFA and used this to great effect.

Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.



Agreed -- Breacher now gets the same problems as rapid launchers -- not being able to finish off ships before a reload & if those ships can rep...you lose. At least a Caracal with 5 rapid launchers can finish off a few smallers ships before reload.
Idea Maybe you give the Breacher a 10% bonus to magazine capacity to at least offset time between reloads?



If instead the reload issues is a CCP attempt to move the necessity for fleets down to noobland...well I think you need to add some more obvious incentives (e.g. 10% fleet bonus to NPC & PVP bounties due to multi-source confirmation of kills) or people will try solo anyways and just conclude the games sucks and the hardcore will just wait until they can skip frigates.
Shadow Cartel
#254 - 2014-03-05 08:53:26 UTC
Talking about the breacher.

Can you fix the capacity on rocket launchers? Its ******* stupid.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Shadow Cartel
#255 - 2014-03-05 14:39:57 UTC
and torpedo charge volume and/or launcher capacity
#256 - 2014-03-05 15:20:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
BREACHER:
Removed +5% missile damage bonus
Added -5% missile RoF bonus

I'll echo the sentiments already posted: RoF is a Caldari trait and missile damage is a Minmatar trait, so this is effectively a nerf. Please reconsider just leaving this as a damage bonus.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Shadow Cartel
#257 - 2014-03-05 15:23:57 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
BREACHER:
Removed +5% missile damage bonus
Added -5% missile RoF bonus

I'll echo the sentiments already posted: RoF is a Caldari trait and missile damage is a Minmatar trait, so this is effectively a nerf. Please reconsider just leaving this as a damage bonus.


**** the 'traits'. if it needs more damage, give it a larger damage bonus.
#258 - 2014-03-05 23:59:41 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
You are giving the Omen a speed buff....Its already possibly the best cruiser with excellent damage projection and enough lows to nano and Armor tank, while already having decent speed.

If anything the rupture needs a slight buff in speed and the stabber needs a bit more DPS.



Lol, the Vexor is the best cruiser. Far and away.

Omen cannot brawl, either.


I have a sideline making Vexors and Thorax, the Vexor sells exceptionally well in gallante space.

The Ammar Abitrator, nice drone boat that it is, pales in comparison. Plus the Vexor gets a navy version. Time to give the Arbitrator some lovin' i beleive.

I love vexor and hate the fact its getting nerfed but I agree that arbitrator is just crap and doesn't get used at all.

I have seen maybe 1 since cruiser buff.




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WE FORM V0LTA
#259 - 2014-03-06 03:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
A few people have pointed out the ROF bonus (mostly relating to the Caracal) - is a problem when you have variable reload times. This is one of the bigger issues that was introduced with the Rapid Missile Launchers in Rubicon - where the reload time is 40 seconds (now 35). Until we fix that, a ROF bonus is distinctly worse than a straight damage bonus.

For the Cruiser level, this is where the Scythe Fleet Issue and Osprey Navy Issue have an advantage over the Caracal/Caracal Navy Issue for damage application with Rapid Light launchers. You can see the 200+ page threadnaught on RLML/RHML for more discussion on that - we don't need to get into it again.

The ammo swap problem introduced by the Rapid Launchers hasn't been fixed yet, and from CCP Rise's last response on the subject, looks like its going to be delayed due to development resources.

If we're already talking about tweaking other stuff to balance the ROF bonus (magazine capacity, reload time), I'd say it's pretty undesirable compared to a straight damage bonus. This obviously doesn't carry over to the Breacher since there's no rapid launcher, but we do run into the same problem during fights where you're stuck in reload more often.

Can someone run the math on how a +7.5% damage bonus/level would compare to the +5% ROF bonus on the Breacher?
Caldari State
#260 - 2014-03-06 10:36:14 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

CARACAL:
+0.01 inertia

Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your feedback.


As pointed out by a corp mate, I'm not really a fan of how the caracal's ROF bonus interacts with the RLML's clip size. I think a damage bonus would be much more appropriate, as it actually increases your damage output before you need to reload. The ROF bonus simply decreases the amount of time until you need to reload.

For that matter, the Bellicose could use a similar treatment.


maybe rof bonuses should decrease reload time


I second the motion.
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