Features & Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
49 Pages123Next pageLast page
 

[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

First post First post First post
Author
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-04-01 15:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:

Hello again industrious capsuleers.

The ORE mining ships received a massive rebalance in the Inferno expansion, which did the classes a lot of good but also had a number of flaws appear over time. Now that we're reaching the second anniversary of that change this is the perfect time to revisit them.

The Inferno changes followed the same goals as the rest of the Tiericide project. Previously Barges were a linear progression of underwhelming Procurers and Retrievers up to the Covetor and Exhumers had very narrow roles as miners of specific types of resources.
After Inferno, the Barges and Exhumers each skewed towards a different playstyle, giving players multiple viable choices depending on what attributes they personally valued.

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.

We'll be keeping the basic role breakdown that the 2012 balance created, but adjusting the bonuses quite significantly within that framework:

The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, and the Skiff gains an extra low slot (bringing its fitted yield up to the same level as the Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.

The Retriever and Mackinaw keep the solo and low-attention mining crown thanks to their untouched massive ore bays. They'll be getting a slight decrease to their yield to help moderate their strength, as the previous round of balancing underestimated how much players value ore hold size.

The Covetor and Hulk remain the kings of yield, at the expense of tank and ore hold capacity. Their abilities in large scale group mining will be further improved through the addition of a 5% per level bonus to mining laser and ice harvester optimal range, as well as an increase in yield.

We're also going to be switching the way that bonuses on the barges are applied, to put more emphasis on the skill bonuses and less on the role bonuses. The skill bonuses to both ore mining and ice mining will be duration based instead of yield based, providing parity between the effectiveness of the ice mining and ore mining bonuses.
Top end m3/hr is increasing by about 4% for the Covetor and about 11% for the Hulk.

We are implementing the following updates to the plan thanks to your feedback and dicusssion:

To ensure that the Covetor and Hulk can make use of their extra mining range in group situations, we are changing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link to apply its range bonus to Survey Scanners in addition to its current function.

To make sure that barge pilots can make use of the many different ORE types available in belts and anomalies, we are reducing the volume of all mining crystals by 60%.

We're giving the Hulk and Covetor a bit more yield and agility, and the Hulk is getting slightly more fittings.

The scan resolution on the Retriever and Mackinaw is being reduced by 17%, and the Procurer and Skiff reduced by 33%. This is partially to provide a small lock speed advantage to the Covetor/Hulk, and partially to ensure that the Procurer and Skiff avoid becoming too powerful in combat. The scan resolution on all barges remains exceptionally good, comparable to destroyers and frigates.

The image was just confusing people, so I'm removing it.



PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 12000m3



RETRIEVER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Ore Hold capacity
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+25% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use

Slot layout: 2H, 1M, 3L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 235 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2300 / 1700 / 2000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 250 / 187.5s / 1.33
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 80 / 0.659 / 20,000,000 / 18.26s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 550(-110) / 5
Sensor strength: 9
Signature radius: 250
Ore Bay: 22000m3



COVETOR

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range
-4% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Slot layout: 3H, 1M, 2L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 255 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700 / 1300 / 1500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 312.5 / 187.5s / 1.67
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(+30) / 0.46(+0.234) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 19.13s(-5.58s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 6
Sensor strength: 8
Signature radius: 200(+50)
Ore Bay: 7000m3



SKIFF

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1);
Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 14(+4)
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 15000m3



MACKINAW

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Ore Hold capacity
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+25% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use

Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 3L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 270 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000 / 2300 / 2700
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 500 / 187.5s / 2.66
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 90(+10) / 0.659 / 20,000,000 / 18.26s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 550(-110) / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 13(+4)
Signature radius: 250
Ore Bay: 28000m3



HULK

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range
-4% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-3% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 40(+5) PWG, 310(+10) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2200 / 1800 / 2000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 625 / 187.5s / 3.33
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+70) / 0.46(+0.234) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 19.13s(-5.58s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 7
Sensor strength: 12(+4)
Signature radius: 200(+50)
Ore Bay: 8500m3

Let us know what you think!

Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Great Blue Balls of Fire
#2 - 2014-04-01 15:20:29 UTC
As long as they still die to catalysts I am happy. Big smile
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2014-04-01 15:20:37 UTC
still no April fool, I PROMISE

_@sala_cameron_

Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-04-01 15:21:49 UTC
IDGI this isn't funny and it won't get people riled up. Do better next year Fozzy
#5 - 2014-04-01 15:22:47 UTC
Looks good.
#6 - 2014-04-01 15:23:19 UTC
Looks like the Summer Industry expansion is shaping up nicely!

Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.

>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<

#7 - 2014-04-01 15:24:39 UTC
optimal range bonus for Hulk. I am sure I suggested this like 18 months ago!!!!


Still.. These are all EXCELLENT changes
#8 - 2014-04-01 15:25:58 UTC
Crikey! Dat Skiff!!
Affirmative.
#9 - 2014-04-01 15:28:50 UTC
If it wasn't bad already, but who is gonna fall for my bait Procurer now... :(
#10 - 2014-04-01 15:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuki Kasumi
Hmm I too like the skiff, however someone appears to have been aware of this in advance. Skiffs were bought out two days ago *grabs tinfoil*
#11 - 2014-04-01 15:32:21 UTC
The thing about large ore holds that people find appealing is that nobody can steal from your can if you store your ore internally.

LE timers should be reduced to 2 mins or even 60s to prevent the abusing of it.
#12 - 2014-04-01 15:33:20 UTC
Skiff:

88k EHP and 360 dps.


I see Skiffs, Skiffs everywhere in low sec cause you need a large ship to kill them now!
#13 - 2014-04-01 15:37:59 UTC
Think you could confuse the crap out of players and extend the drone damage and HP bonus to include drone mining yield also?
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2014-04-01 15:42:57 UTC
links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-04-01 15:44:11 UTC
what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

#16 - 2014-04-01 15:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
interesting .... shorter cycles will mean using more cap though surely?? .. cap is already unimpressive in the retriever at least..

also 1 mid slot for tank on the retriever/Mackinaw is silly .. more slots would be nice on these ships .. cargoships have more.

also more dronebay on the retriever/mackinaw would be nice so you can have mining drones and a set of scouts for defense...
perhaps you could add mining drone bonuses on some aswell???

also make medium harvester drones usable for a decent price ...70mil a drone the last time i checked is absurd..

Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.

ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using

#17 - 2014-04-01 15:51:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament


Fill the next tournament area with asteroids to create terrain, then allow barges and exhumers in to modify the terrain.

Twisted

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Nulli Secunda
#18 - 2014-04-01 15:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players.

Increased losses to refining coupled with a lower incoming stream of minerals = higher prices on already very high mineral costs.

Then we factor in the reason that so many people use the retriever and mackinaw is because mining is boring as hell.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.

You really should have expected it. Mining is the least engaging activity in the game by most peoples opinions. To have expected much diversity other than the least effort and time spent to do a fundamentally flawed and boring activity was silly.

Nothing is going to change. The micromanagement needed to fly a hulk is still going to be far too much effort for most people when you are talking peanuts of income, and needing to jetcan out the mined ore literally ever other cycle. All you did was reduce the yield of the people in retrievers, without offering any significant reason to shift to the annoying to fly Hulk. Especially since they are still massive gank magnets in highsec.

Lead with a carrot CCP, not a stick.

Weaselior wrote:
you mean the changes that do no such thing? the ones that keep the yield of highsec mining exactly the same as before?

Anhenka wrote:
Can you or I refine at equal or higher %'s postpatch? Sure. Will there be a significant number of people refining at a lower yield than current? I think so.
Circle-Of-Two
#19 - 2014-04-01 15:53:23 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges


Quick! Someone plays differently than I do!

Burn them!
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-04-01 15:57:00 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals,

What? Ore will refine for 100-120% of what it does after the change. Scrap metal reprocessing is not a significant source of minerals and the 45% drop there is ****ing into the wind.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

49 Pages123Next pageLast page
Forum Jump