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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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#481 - 2014-04-15 20:25:02 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.


Let's see if CCP comes up with a way of dealing with offline high sec POS.


Before this mess in implemented, or in 2015?
#482 - 2014-04-15 20:25:22 UTC
Maybe I'm alone in reading "Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space" meaning that we will be able to anchor them places other than moons. That would really rock, but I'm guessing that's not what the dev blog meant.
#483 - 2014-04-15 20:25:28 UTC
I think I like most of what is in the blog!

Have to give it a bit more time to process tho, more detail will be available when the next blog arrives.

Any ETA on that one?

I am serious!

#484 - 2014-04-15 20:26:01 UTC
Firstly, thanks for finally looking at this. I don't care how convoluted it is and how much haggling has to be done, sorting industry is so overdue I'll be happy with anything.

Basic responses to the core stuff:

  • Cleaning Market groups - yup, looks fine
  • Stopping the damage - ditto. You need to make it clearer on the blog that existing RAM/RDb will be replaced at the increased ratio as it's being repeatedly asked here. Also consider mentioning you will look at the volume.
  • Extra Materials, the fifth wheel - *snort* about time :P
  • Removing station traffic jams, one slot at a time - some thoughts below, overall yep
  • Back into the structure, part deux - iterating on POS without commiting to a proper POS revamp is only going to cause a headache, but OK for now - further comments below
  • This is not even my final form! - looks very nice (I like the fact you appear to be able to minimise the pretty picture to get back to a list if you prefer.)

Some of the major concerns I'm seeing so far and some suggestions

NPC Standings
  • Allow a modifier to instal rates based upon NPC corp and faction standings. Doesn't need to be anything massive, but why not implement it in a similar way to trading standings modifiers.
  • This one is a bit extreme, and I fully expect it to be completely disregarded, but... Why does this new system preserve the no-risk element for those who instal jobs in station rather than a POS? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Perhaps a new skill for high standing alts should be the ability to see who is installing what in NPC stations, with varying tiers of info tied to standings. That way if certain systems do get clogged up with particular manufacturers and researchers, players have the ability to find out who it is and dec them. v0v might be fun.

Removal of the ability to remote copy/manufacture in POS
This is actually a pain in the arse for anyone doing bulk copying, invention or SC building. Looking at the dev blog schedule it might be addressed later on so you can have the benefit of the doubt - for now - but please take on board feedback. I can see slots in stations being gobbled up by copiers, creating a baseline cost for every other activity. Not entirely sure that's fair given you are adding a deliberate extra step in the process.
  • Consider removing copying altogether from the cost scheme initially to see how the market/playerbase react
  • Add the ability to copy an additional 10-11 lines in a mirror of existing research skills - otherwise you condemn people to waste additional alts on copying
  • I'm not doing myself any favours here as I have around 65k BPC copies which I suspect will be worthless in a few weeks - but please can you clarify: if changes are made to copy rates which result in additional copies on max run BPCs will these be retrospectively applied to existing copies. Consider this one carefully please or you'll screw the existing BPC market and anyone heavily invested in it. No, we don't deserve an i-win button for having massive stockpiles, but we don't deserve to see them spectacularly devalued overnight by those who didn't spend years with unlimited copy slots.

Teams
I have no idea what that is but it looks the most intriguing and damn you for saving it til last! A lot of questions being asked right now are about the loss of ability to lock down items - but the ability to indy in groups is so overlooked I'm quite pleased to even see "teams" mentioned. If it ties into changes to corp roles in any way, you'll be onto a winner. I'd love to see something similar to that interface for corp/alliance management.

Looking forward to the next blogs! P

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Vae. Victis.
#485 - 2014-04-15 20:26:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Considering how quick and easy it will be to move BPC's via shuttle several jumps in any direction from a market hub this would be completely impractical. Do you have any concept of what it would cost, or more importantly the time that would be involved in set up and maintenance, trying to blanket every moon in every system within a 5 or 10 jump radius of Jita? We are talking a mere 5 or 10 minutes of travel time.

Not really a cause for concern.


Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.

Yes they did, and the PoCo system (and the market activity fueled by them) is thriving. Blink

CCP has already stated they will address the issues of abandoned POS removal, and if they aren't abandoned they need to be maintained (and cost accordingly). So how many greifer corps (as you so inaccurately put it) get off on maintaining a network that would need to include literally 100's of POS's to be an effective blockade? Blink

Lastly, why on earth would blanketing dozens of systems with POS's affect manufacturing in stations other than the trade hub one wit? Unless you choose to manufacture at a POS simply move a couple of jumps to a less expensive system and manufacture there in an NPC station.

This is one of your further stretches my friend.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Amarr Empire
#486 - 2014-04-15 20:26:05 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I think you are completely overlooking how incredibly fast the process of invention will be. Most of your time is tied up waiting for slots to open up or for copies to be made. This will no longer be a factor... and you will benefit from this far more than the T2 BPO holder.


There will no longer be slots. There will be a different system. We do not know that new system. It could combine all of the industrial activities together so you might be waiting for manufacturing in order to copy. We don't know yet. The copy speed increase will be nice, and may counter other issues. We don't know yet. Given what we do know it is fair to raise the potential of T2 BPOs increasing their market share. It is also fair to suggest the ways that invention might be increase vs T2 BPOs. With those potentials noted we can be prepared to review the remaining information.
#487 - 2014-04-15 20:27:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bear in mind the difference between spending 5 days mining your own materials, and 5 minutes ferrying your BPC's in a shuttle a few jumps.

However, human nature being what it is, this could well promote the emergence of new local trade hubs... which would be a plus.


Ferrying your BPCs in your shuttle a few jumps to what? manufacture at 14% of cost? 10%? Even 4%?

This is going to drive manufacturing out of the hubs. There are only so many moons in the trade hub systems. The biggest of those systems, Jita, is going to be off limits. I'm guessing that the POS slots in Amarr will become even more hotly contested, raising the effective price of those further.

So, slightly revised: the net effect will be the creation of walled cities. The central system will be largely taken up by king-of-the-hill alliances and coalitions, with lesser but still significant powers taking up adjacent and nearby systems. Then, the "wall," or ring, defined by the balance between cost-to-manufacture and cost-to-freight. This general system will replicate itself fractally across New Eden, scaling with the size of the central hub. Outside of those will be essentially random, low-volume noise with the occasional superhighway cutting through to get goods from one major hub to another.

It has the potential to diversify the landscape somewhat, and the systems around the biggest rings may see a lot of PVP activity, which will decrease rapidly as you approach the central hub (except for indy gankers in pipes, of course--but even they might find themselves policed if they interfere with a major alliance's logistics).

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

#488 - 2014-04-15 20:27:44 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:

Death to the Casuals... Especially the ones that complain with every single change to the game...



I know this is somewhat hyperbole, but death to casual players would be death to EVE. For a presentation a few years back, I think I recall the number being that in any given month, only 20% of accounts appear on a kill mail.


I don't see how you can conclude from this that the 80% are casual players. Maybe they mission, mine, do industry, or what else that does not involve kill mails.

I am serious!

Snuffed Out
#489 - 2014-04-15 20:28:32 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

we don't like to think of it as an attack. it's just ensuring that the efforts of the 'casual player' are directed towards a greater purpose. think of it simply as organising players into stratas, with 'casual highseccers' working as a team under the direction of project leaders associated with some of the larger non-highsec bodies of players. we'll be targeting players who are not currently working within this structure for reassignment to more productive duties towards a common goal.
#490 - 2014-04-15 20:29:16 UTC
With no, hard-to-grind, Corp standing requirement to obtain before setting up a Hi-Sec POS, I can see many of these absentee POS Owners getting a wardec soon after the patch hits to clear the space.

However, from what I've seen so far, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in putting one up anyway post-patch as infinite slots for everything are available somewhere in stations and all you need to do is move (research particularly) to quieter / less used systems to keep the cost down.
#491 - 2014-04-15 20:30:29 UTC
Querns wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.

It is called a courier contract. I use them exclusively to have things moved in highsec, with appropriate collateral. I pay darn good, too -- >500k / jump. Outsourcing the risk is absolutely worth the minor decrease in profit to me, not to mention the fact that I don't, y'know, have to move it myself.

I've had more than one courier get suicide ganked, too.

It is a little strange that you just happen to be doing whatever economic activity that is being affected in every single dev blog. Either you are a prolific eve player, with his fingers in nearly every pie, or you're lying.



Um.....look at my corp history. I have done all these things, and yeah, I do play a lot of Eve, or done it one time or another. So yeah, I can comment on the impact of these changes.

oh, and an aside, I am OK with venturing into low sec (FW zones, plus through the old PL staging area) to pick up BPC's. I always accepted that risk since I shut down my POS. But now the cost of copying is going way way up, and the risk remains the same.
Caldari State
#492 - 2014-04-15 20:30:52 UTC
Sad MonkeySpanker wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:

...
The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.


They did mention Risk-Reward....



Except there is no real risk. A heavily hardened large high sec POS is virtually bullet proof.

It isn't risk, it is the hassle of having to set up the alt corp, set up and run the POS, crank out all the BPCs.

All hassle, virtually no risk, a little reward.... a little extra demand and profit for ice miners.
#493 - 2014-04-15 20:34:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Um.....look at my corp history. I have done all these things, and yeah, I do play a lot of Eve, or done it one time or another. So yeah, I can comment on the impact of these changes.
Your track record of being wrong about almost everything you comment on suggests otherwise, as does your insistence on assigning intentions where none exist and your obvious confusion about even very basic mechanics and behaviours, which is the real source of the imagined problems you keep envisioning.
Singularity Syndicate
#494 - 2014-04-15 20:34:59 UTC
Doc McCoy wrote:
Maybe I'm alone in reading "Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space" meaning that we will be able to anchor them places other than moons. That would really rock, but I'm guessing that's not what the dev blog meant.


I hope its the way you and I both read it. Not requiring standings and not needing to be at a moon goes with the whole 'Empires losing control' thing

I'm also hoping they've sneakily built a group of deployable structures that replace towers (but still use PI to build of course). I look forward to standing up my first tower (or equivalent) :)
Vae. Victis.
#495 - 2014-04-15 20:35:25 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I think you are completely overlooking how incredibly fast the process of invention will be. Most of your time is tied up waiting for slots to open up or for copies to be made. This will no longer be a factor... and you will benefit from this far more than the T2 BPO holder.


There will no longer be slots. There will be a different system. We do not know that new system. It could combine all of the industrial activities together so you might be waiting for manufacturing in order to copy. We don't know yet. The copy speed increase will be nice, and may counter other issues. We don't know yet. Given what we do know it is fair to raise the potential of T2 BPOs increasing their market share. It is also fair to suggest the ways that invention might be increase vs T2 BPOs. With those potentials noted we can be prepared to review the remaining information.

Indeed, just keep in mind that any benefit in time that a T2 BPO owner is likely to see will be far more beneficial to the Invention specialist, considering all the different steps that are required in Invention and the scale on which it is usually done.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

#496 - 2014-04-15 20:35:47 UTC
Quote:
Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).


Anywhere?

What does that mean? In a safe?

At the Sun?

1000km off a station?

I know it's a stupid question but that needs tidying up or clarifying.

D-Scan will become a useless worthless piece of cack if pos can be placed anywhere Lol
Goonswarm Federation
#497 - 2014-04-15 20:37:05 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.

It is called a courier contract. I use them exclusively to have things moved in highsec, with appropriate collateral. I pay darn good, too -- >500k / jump. Outsourcing the risk is absolutely worth the minor decrease in profit to me, not to mention the fact that I don't, y'know, have to move it myself.

I've had more than one courier get suicide ganked, too.

It is a little strange that you just happen to be doing whatever economic activity that is being affected in every single dev blog. Either you are a prolific eve player, with his fingers in nearly every pie, or you're lying.



Um.....look at my corp history. I have done all these things, and yeah, I do play a lot of Eve, or done it one time or another. So yeah, I can comment on the impact of these changes.

oh, and an aside, I am OK with venturing into low sec (FW zones, plus through the old PL staging area) to pick up BPC's. I always accepted that risk since I shut down my POS. But now the cost of copying is going way way up, and the risk remains the same.

Sure, but you always mention (INSERT ECONOMIC ACTIVITY HERE) in the present tense.

If you had said, "at one time in my storied eve experience I had copied capital BPOs in lowsec," repeated for every single eve economic activity, especially the ones that are being changed at the time, I'd be more inclined to believe you, but expecting me to believe that you do every single one of these activities all at once stretches your credibility pretty far.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

C C P Alliance
#498 - 2014-04-15 20:38:29 UTC
DoAsYouAreBid wrote:
Quote:
Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).


Anywhere?

What does that mean? In a safe?

At the Sun?

1000km off a station?

I know it's a stupid question but that needs tidying up or clarifying.

D-Scan will become a useless worthless piece of cack if pos can be placed anywhere Lol


No, they still need to be anchored at moons.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Gallente Federation
#499 - 2014-04-15 20:39:20 UTC
I have a couple of questions and comments about the changes, but over all the look really good.

Firstly how do you intend to address invention and the to make it less clunky without totally breaking it with these changes. In the current pos system if I can't run jobs remotely from a station I need to go to a POS to run the jobs which locks down a toon to the system as the cycle times are only 1.25 hours, do you intend to streamline this?

Secondly I think that a hard cap of 14% is faaaar to low, the fee's as they stand right now are a joke compared to the cost of fueling a pos per slot. The current prices even at 500% its almost equal the cost per hour to run a job in a reasonably fit pos.

Lastly while we're changing copying times I'd like to see T2 BPO copy times remain where they are, if they become more viable then invention you will likely see that system in its current state fizzle out really really quickly. People who got lucky in the T2 BPO lottery already have piles of money, there is absolutely no need to line their pockets even more (imo they should all be done away with to make it fair but oh the rivers that would be cried if you did that).
#500 - 2014-04-15 20:40:32 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Sad MonkeySpanker wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:

...
The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.


They did mention Risk-Reward....



Except there is no real risk. A heavily hardened large high sec POS is virtually bullet proof.

It isn't risk, it is the hassle of having to set up the alt corp, set up and run the POS, crank out all the BPCs.

All hassle, virtually no risk, a little reward.... a little extra demand and profit for ice miners.


Whomever told you that a hardened high sec POS is bulletproof was lying. Even if it fits some turrets and lots of EW, undefended it is a sitting duck, going down in a few hours.

Think Long range sentry drones from 2 moderate groups of bonus-ed battleships. Large shield buffers and maybe a few logistics to top it off and go watch a movie. POS defenses will never on their own attack the drones, so it is just a matter of time before an attacker wins. Such a fleet would even be able to defend itself against a few active defenders quite well due to the range the groups can cover each other!

I am serious!

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