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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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#21 - 2014-04-29 12:10:06 UTC
Hmm that blog is a bit disappointing as i feel it still lacks a lot of information.

The example is for a high sec station, so what actually happens to or for POS owners? What sort of bonus or penalty are we looking for at there? What different makes it if we use several POS structures of the same type?

When it comes to laboratories, what will the benefit be of using a rare and special laboratory? (The "Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory" comes to mind). Will POS users who invest in special buildings get a bonus? Will there be ME bonuses on production runs like on outposts?

If there is none of that, i feel that running and maintaining a POS may not be worthwile anymore, and POS owners get basically "shafted" and told to "move to the NPC stations, they can do all this, without needing fuel blocks, for the same manufacturing/install price".

Having a POS out there is a risk, there has always been a risk vs reward thing in EVE - so what is the reward for the POS users out there? What do they gain? Especially now that BPOs need to be brought there if you want to research them or upgrade them? So what "bone" can we expect for taking this risk?



So yes... this blog post has a huge lack of information.. or a huge missing part, where further information should be.


Yulai Federation
#22 - 2014-04-29 12:11:39 UTC
Hi,
Will the costs or the system modifiers for manufacturing, research or reverse engineering be available as a universe map overlays so we can actually see the cheap spots ?


Cheers
Ramm
#23 - 2014-04-29 12:12:33 UTC
The DevBlog is a bit complex in its description, but if i got everything right, it sounds like a really awesome change.

Just one comment, not all stations in low-sec/high-sec have factory slots...you can put factory slots on every outpost through its upgrades.....but not in NPC stations.....these changes will make non-factory stations entirely useless....are you guys planning to add factory services to every station if the idea is to be able to "spread" the manufacturing load across the cluster?
Brothers of Tangra
#24 - 2014-04-29 12:13:29 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
Hi,
Will the costs or the system modifiers for manufacturing, research or reverse engineering be available as a universe map overlays so we can actually see the cheap spots ?


Cheers
Ramm



They have said several times it will be located on the UI for industry and you can even link in a BPO you don't own and check pricing for building etc

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

#25 - 2014-04-29 12:13:38 UTC
Are there any plans to factor standings in as a modifier for fees and/or taxes?
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2014-04-29 12:15:42 UTC
Quote:
Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers


Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

#27 - 2014-04-29 12:16:02 UTC
Is the output pricing the same as used in the inventory? Because this is wildly wrong for t2 capital components, both too low or too high depending on which one.

--

Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-04-29 12:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadar Yassavi
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, basically if I produce in a 1 station system in High sec, I am screwed?]

Not necessarly. If everybody thinks the system is **** nobody will install jobs there, drastically reducing the "fraction of global jobs" factor. But I don't know if it will really outweigh it.

However, it's really interesting how these changes turn industry into a game of predicting installation cost movements.

Interesting times to say the least. Interesting times indeed.
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2014-04-29 12:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
Abrazzar wrote:
Are there any plans to factor standings in as a modifier for fees and/or taxes?

I should hope so, it would only make sense.

I do like the idea of having multiple facilities at a POS reducing costs, that will be delightful if that works out.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here

#30 - 2014-04-29 12:20:45 UTC
How do faction warfare system control improve their manufacturing and research costs? I may have missed them being addressed.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

#31 - 2014-04-29 12:21:19 UTC
seems like POS owners are been treated like mushrooms.
Yulai Federation
#32 - 2014-04-29 12:21:27 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
Hi,
Will the costs or the system modifiers for manufacturing, research or reverse engineering be available as a universe map overlays so we can actually see the cheap spots ?


Cheers
Ramm



They have said several times it will be located on the UI for industry and you can even link in a BPO you don't own and check pricing for building etc



That's fine and dandy, but my understanding that will be the price of where I am planning to build it. What I was wanted to know if see if its worth moving systems. I.e can I produce a map of the universe that says overall building costs. So I can see that Saisio is the most expensive and Jita is ranked 106th on the list.

But thanks for your feedback Smile
#33 - 2014-04-29 12:21:49 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers


Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else?


On top if the total build cost, like it says in the blog.

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula_550.png
#34 - 2014-04-29 12:29:07 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Are there any plans to factor standings in as a modifier for fees and/or taxes?

I should hope so, it would only make sense.

I do like the idea of having multiple facilities at a POS reducing costs, that will be delightful if that works out.

Maybe they go further and have special teams available for people with high standings in the station and faction teams separate from that. And outposts can be upgraded with teams in slots on the industrial upgrade bought with LP or 'constructed' from blueprints.
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-04-29 12:32:34 UTC
#36 - 2014-04-29 12:32:51 UTC
Holy system facilities batman!

Am i right in thinking, everything else being static, that each level of ME/TE research costs the same? it does not get more expensive 'per level' to research to higher levels.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-04-29 12:33:41 UTC
Several questions: hi-sec

1- how do we calculate base run cost in systems with no base ( in high sec ) , according to what I understood it s based on percentage of jobs to gloable jobs, in such case it s very low. Anyways further info would be great!

2- station with no factories, do they affect the base run cost calculation? And will we be able to place jobs in them

3- in POS there is different assembly arrays ( for ammo, for modules...) is the system staying as is? And how will the supposed extra bonus be calculated in this case? ( to get the extra bonus would I need to place 5 small ship arrays, or the different assembly arrays affect the bonus...)

4- so lowest hi sec sys is around 4% while highest null sec is 4% and how many tiers of +1 ME bonus is there in null sec manufacturing stations? Just trying to calculate the min-max cost difference

Thanks
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2014-04-29 12:35:17 UTC
Most interesting thing is this devblog was that, apparently, teams are going to be something wildly different than people were hoping for Lol. I think most of us were envisioning some sort of internal corp or alliance pool for working together on large complicated production chains. Instead it looks as if it's going to be some form of stat/time multiplier much like decryptors are.

As in, using a specialized station team will be more expensive, but the job will be done faster and/or with higher ME. Or you can hire some hobos and do the job super cheap while ME is lowered and time is increased.

The installation cost is interesting. I suppose we could do a whole lot of predictions and stuff, but ultimately we'll have to see how things flow once the update hits. The current picture of TQ in regards to most used industry systems is very unlikely to stay the same.

Also the only negative thing I have to mention is that POS labs and stuff are being pushed on the back burner... AGAIN. You're revamping the entire industry system but then mention in the blog that you don't actually have a solution for multiple POS labs yet and that there may very well not be one on launch day. That's unacceptable. And I don't use that term lightly when it comes to EVE development, I know you guys have a lot on your plate. But pushing the POS solution backwards is really not an option guys, I hope you realize this.

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C C P Alliance
#39 - 2014-04-29 12:37:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.

Kithran wrote:
Will there be any way to affect the NPC tax amount thanks to standings with either the Faction the owning corp belongs to or with the Corp that owns the station itself (given both these standings affect one of the other npc taxes you pay for an activity in a station and one of these standings affects the other)?


Not in the current plan for the initial release, no. We'd like to do it but there probably won't be time to get it in the first iteration.

mynnna wrote:
Greyscale, these numbers are fascinating! However many people may still fear nullsec will pay low costs while highsec me I'll be high everywhere! Can you post numbers on how many systems in highsec see no activity at all so as to demonstrate how much people may he able to find low cost operating locations? BlinkBlinkBlink


As it happens, I have those numbers to hand :)

In the snapshot the examples are based on, 38.9% of hisec systems have no activity at all.

We're almost certainly going to introduce a minimum activity "cap" so prices don't become 0, but it's looking like being somewhere around 0.0001% of global activity.

In this snapshot, 754 of the 1212 hisec systems have any activity at all, and will be floored at the minimum activity cap, another 7 hisec systems have a non-zero amount of activity that's still below the cap. Another 127 systems are below 1% of build cost, 179 are between 1% and 2%, 187 between 2% and 3%, 110 between 3% and 4%, 74 between 4% and 5%, leaving the remaining 70 above 5%.

Peter Powers wrote:
So, it is on purpose that specific systems will be a lot better for building stuff than others?

That will raise office prices in those system by a lot, and people who already have setup in those systems by now will have an advantage over people who would want to get in there. How will that be compensated?

Also, from what i gathered in this post, low-sec will face basically the same values as high sec? so, whats the incentive for using low-sec?


Also, the over-time bonus, when i have two 100 run bpc, and i put them in production one after the other, will it get better bonuses for the bulk, or will the "more runs" thing only be counted per bpc?


Some people will get lucky on offices; that's just the luck of the draw and we aren't planning on any "compensation" there. Generally though, the systems that are good for building after the change tended to be good for building before the change.

Low sec uses the same fee structure as hisec, yes. Well-positioned lowsec systems (eg near Jita) will, we expect, be less popular than nearby hisec systems, and thus cheaper. This doesn't require any special consideration.

The over-time bonus is just per job; two separate BPCs require two separate jobs.

Altrue wrote:
I was expecting a bigger incentive to build in null-sec. Maybe I'm wrong, or I have trouble grasping actual numbers, time will tell.


Just out of interest, why? AFAIK this is the first solid info we've given on how the pricing will work, the first time we've mentioned nullsec at all, and there's a paragraph right at the top saying "we're not trying to change the hisec/nullsec balance". Where's the assumption we were going to incentivize nullsec coming from?

Weaselior wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Still no mention of new station bonuses - as promised like 4 blogs ago


you didn't read closely, those are in there.

Quote:
For each previously-slot-improving outpost research upgrade, you'll similarly get a 0.9x multiplier to research job prices.

For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita. And that's from a hyper-specialized factory: once you do that you've used up nearly all of your outpost upgrade slots and you've only got one tier 1 left (probably offices). I think that bonus should be increased slightly at the high end (i.e. a tier 2 or 3 upgrade should give 2%) or the bonus given to pos should be reduced somewhat.

While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.

I can't comment on the value of the research upgrade as I don't understand how research is priced, so I don't know if this is valuable or saves me several whole pennies.


We're probably revisiting the starbase numbers in the near future, which should alleviate at least some of this concern I hope.

Weaselior wrote:
For research upgrades: do both invention and research slots get pooled (so 1x research slot upgrade 1x invention slot upgrade = .81 modifier for both types of jobs) or is it individual (1x and 1x means .9 modifier for both)?


Yes, they should be pooled, as we're only tracking a single research multiplier.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
So the taxes introduced for jobs, are they affected by the skills based around tax reductions?


Probably not in the initial release, we might revisit this though.

Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Hmm that blog is a bit disappointing as i feel it still lacks a lot of information.

The example is for a high sec station, so what actually happens to or for POS owners? What sort of bonus or penalty are we looking for at there? What different makes it if we use several POS structures of the same type?

When it comes to laboratories, what will the benefit be of using a rare and special laboratory? (The "Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory" comes to mind). Will POS users who invest in special buildings get a bonus? Will there be ME bonuses on production runs like on outposts?

If there is none of that, i feel that running and maintaining a POS may not be worthwile anymore, and POS owners get basically "shafted" and told to "move to the NPC stations, they can do all this, without needing fuel blocks, for the same manufacturing/install price".

Having a POS out there is a risk, there has always been a risk vs reward thing in EVE - so what is the reward for the POS users out there? What do they gain? Especially now that BPOs need to be brought there if you want to research them or upgrade them? So what "bone" can we expect for taking this risk?



So yes... this blog post has a huge lack of information.. or a huge missing part, where further information should be.




So.

Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.

We are looking at various bonuses to starbase structures to give them some oomph.

We are looking at the Hyasyoda lab to make sure it's still useful.

We would *like* to have bonuses for having multiple labs/assembly arrays at the same tower, but it may not be feasible immediately due to the somewhat arcane state of the starbase code.

Ramman K'arojic wrote:
Hi,
Will the costs or the system modifiers for manufacturing, research or reverse engineering be available as a universe map overlays so we can actually see the cheap spots ?


Cheers
Ramm


We're working on good solutions for conveying this sort of information, yes :)

Alain Colcer wrote:
The DevBlog is a bit complex in its description, but if i got everything right, it sounds like a really awesome change.

Just one comment, not all stations in low-sec/high-sec have factory slots...you can put factory slots on every outpost through its upgrades.....but not in NPC stations.....these changes will make non-factory stations entirely useless....are you guys planning to add factory services to every station if the idea is to be able to "spread" the manufacturing load across the cluster?


Not immediately, no, although if we find it's a balance problem we may change this.

Weaselior wrote:
Quote:
Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers


Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else?


It's a 1.1x multiplier at the end of the formula, so 10% of the job fees.

C C P Alliance
#40 - 2014-04-29 12:38:30 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
How do faction warfare system control improve their manufacturing and research costs? I may have missed them being addressed.


Search the blog for "Outposts and FW upgrades", and let me know if that section covers what you want to know or not :)
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