Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

First post First post
Author
Divide and Conquer.
#561 - 2014-05-10 08:05:11 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


I understand the reasoning (e.g. its a sandbox) but this will basically KILL PVPer population in wormhole space as it just makes it even more difficult for people to find fights. I would say most of those people wanting it removed are carebears that choose to live in dangerous space but just want another reason not to have look at their computer screen.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Divide and Conquer.
#562 - 2014-05-10 08:10:48 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


I understand the reasoning (e.g. its a sandbox) but this will basically KILL PVPer population in wormhole space as it just makes it even more difficult for people to find fights. I would say most of those people wanting it removed are carebears that choose to live in dangerous space but just want another reason not to have look at their computer screen.

+1
Goonswarm Federation
#563 - 2014-05-10 08:14:10 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
I understand the reasoning (e.g. its a sandbox) but this will basically KILL PVPer population in wormhole space as it just makes it even more difficult for people to find fights. I would say most of those people wanting it removed are carebears that choose to live in dangerous space but just want another reason not to have look at their computer screen.

I understand the reasoning, but making production viable more than two jumps out of jita will basically KILL industrialist population in highsec as it just makes it even more difficult for people to compete with null. I would say most of those people wanting build slot limits to be removed are carebears that choose to live in dangerous space but just want another reason not to have to look at their computer screen.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.

Gallente Federation
#564 - 2014-05-10 08:48:55 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


That makes sense, that you would want to make the two systems the same, or not have one system provide information that the other cannot. This is a fundamental design issue and I don't think it requires input from players because it affects the health of the game, whether we like it or not. You guys have to do what is technically sound for the game and not provide 3rd party advantages other than what is given in game. As I understand the gist of it.

This is definitely something that you should just run with internally because whether we like it or not, it's not up to us as players. If it's any comfort I think your decision is very fair and technically sound for the health of the game.
#565 - 2014-05-10 19:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Thread cleaned up. Keep it on topic and civil please. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Vice Admiral

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Gallente Federation
#566 - 2014-05-10 23:05:45 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
As this thread is now going the way of Fozzies other idea thread in WH section and now we are completely ignored by Devs and the thread is now filled with nullsec players who don't even understand how we play our game day in day out making stupid arguments with no reasoning other then the original technical standpoint of CCP Foxfour then its time for me to unsubscribe this clusterfuck.

I have voiced my concerns in here enough and i hope CCP sees reason and doesn't make this change but if they do for some stupid technical reason then i hope they take the time to actually look at our content generation in WH space and how we interact with our neighbors and look to improve it instead of just kneejerk reactionary development.

Thank you for actually noticing that the null kids are poking there nose where it doesn't belong. WH people try to stay out of nullsec conversations because we haven't got a clue as to whats going on. Or the majority don't... Anyways...

Dex Stratos wrote:
Andiedeath wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


I understand the reasoning (e.g. its a sandbox) but this will basically KILL PVPer population in wormhole space as it just makes it even more difficult for people to find fights. I would say most of those people wanting it removed are carebears that choose to live in dangerous space but just want another reason not to have look at their computer screen.

+1


If you're just removing the NPC Kill API string, I'm fine with that. Ship kills should stay, imo. As for my comments before, I still stand by the idea of having a delayed local for nullsec. I still feel as if CCP doesn't care a whole lot about Wormholes. It seems like that every new expansion or major patch, has some negative effect for wormholes.

I'm an industrial by heart, but I do enjoy blapping people from time to time. I've been doing a rather good job at nailing cloaky scanners. I'm against anything that doesn't encourage people to jump into wormholes. The wormhole community is slowly dying. I've cycled my static on both my holes, and 1 out of 10 holes is occupied, c3/c4 holes usually are never that way. Anyways, If we had a module we could deploy, or anchor on a pos that does a system scan for hostiles. IF anything, I think pos's should be reworked more than anything with wormholes. But I guess, I have very little say in the matter. I've only lived in wormholes for 3 years now. I've been playing EVE for almost a decade now, between my characters I've had over the years.
Odin's Call
#567 - 2014-05-11 01:12:30 UTC
Again, easy solution..

Glimpse Probes..
L A Z E R H A W K S
#568 - 2014-05-11 08:10:41 UTC
As a wormhole resident, I have to agree with many that have posted on this thread that removing the NPC kill data from the API seems a bit excessive. Since the reasoning seems to be that it's not accessible in-game by any means, perhaps make it available in-game somehow, instead of removing a key component for those of us that attempt to find PVP in wormhole space. So many of the game changes over the past couple years have been for the benefit of PVP, that this one in particular seems a step in the complete other direction. This can only benefit those that profit ridiculously by farming w-space, only logging in to roll wormholes, and run the sleeper sites (and eventually using a cloaky hauler to take their loot to k-space to sell). I don't have a problem with people doing this; however, the data has always been available to us to see when this is being done. We can't even see who's doing it, just how many NPC's are being killed and approximately when. It lets us know if someone might be around when we've rolled into them, or whether someone may have been careless when running their sites, providing PVP content generation.

Removing the NPC kill data from EVE API is only going to hurt PVP entities and help those that exploit wormhole space only for the riches contained in that system they run sites in. Please, for the love of your PVP entities, do not remove this data from the EVE API. Thank you.
TOHA Conglomerate
#569 - 2014-05-11 09:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Zenzija wrote:
The wormhole community is slowly dying. I've cycled my static on both my holes, and 1 out of 10 holes is occupied, c3/c4 holes usually are never that way.


If it s true that wspace is less occupied than it was, there could be a number of causal factors:
1. Easier returns on pve elsewhere (incursions?)
2. Random fluctuations in player behaviour
3. People tiring of being mercilessly ganked and held hostage.
4. New players being attracted in different directions (brave newbies, goons, etc)

This change addresses point 3 in a small way. It won't stop people being mercilessly ganked, but it means that the tankers will have to put a tiny amount of effort into it.

The overall effect on wspace will be close to zero, and if anything will serve to increase the number of people in c1/2/3 space.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
#570 - 2014-05-11 09:31:13 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The overall effect on wspace will be close to zero, and if anything will serve to increase the number of people in c1/2/3 space.

Quite funny when i look at your alliance killboard you hardly find any kills in w-space ... .
Where are all those targets you say that are so easy to find?

No local in null sec would fix everything!

TOHA Conglomerate
#571 - 2014-05-11 10:24:44 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The overall effect on wspace will be close to zero, and if anything will serve to increase the number of people in c1/2/3 space.

Quite funny when i look at your alliance killboard you hardly find any kills in w-space ... .
Where are all those targets you say that are so easy to find?


This is a tangential argument at best. No one is saying that it's easy to find targets. I think I am on record for saying that it requires work.

There are a variety of places we do pvp, depending on how many people are available, what the w-space chains look like, how we're feeling that day and so on. Recently (say 6 months?), more often than not, the chains have been pretty sparse.

Nevertheless, whether or not the majority of my kills have been in w-space recently or not, this has no bearing on the argument being presented, which is about incentives.

I don't know how long you've been in w-space. I have been here for 3 years. I have certainly seen a drop in target numbers.

I'm not surprised. Starting with the Narwhals with their ruthless efficiency at extorting c3 residents, and then AHARM etc and the ascendancy of 40-man T3 gank fleets with perfect intel, I imagine life in a c3 or lower has become untenable. I am sure there is an easier and more lucrative living to be had elsewhere.

I'm afraid we have the hunter's dilemma. The more you kill, the less there is to kill. You have to manage your hunting grounds by incentivising people to live there. Ruthlessly exterminating them and then complaining that there is no more prey is just... daft.

A final note, I'd like to just address one of the elephants in the room.

Most w-space PVP is not what you might call real PVP. Dropping an overwhelming force onto defenceless pilots doing PVE who have no means of calling for backup can hardly be called PVP. It's actually cowardice dressed up as PVP. Like shooting lions from the safety of a safari truck. It probably seems like fun until you actually do it.

To add insult to injury, current w-space doctrine seems to be to kill the pods of the innocents that have just been ganked - like shooting the cub after killing the mother. This is also ridiculous. It guarantees that the victim cannot reship, regroup and come back to give you the fight you think you want, condemning you to another 20 wormhole rolls to find your next victim.

These days, if I am FCing a w-space execution of w-space carebears (sure, we execute carebears - but we don't live to execute carebears), I instruct people to let the pods live.

Sometimes people do actually reship (if we haven't dropped a ridiculously overwhelming force on them) and come back. Then there's a chance of a bit of fun.

The other advantage is that we end the encounter on much better terms than if I had simply senselessly murdered them. After all, what do I have to gain from blowing up a carebear's pod? Nothing will drop, and he'll just think I'm a moron.

Sure, killing a pod is strategically necessary in a large, even encounter. These only ever occur between a few c6 pvp corps.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Gallente Federation
#572 - 2014-05-11 10:27:02 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Again, easy solution..

Glimpse Probes..


Dude has got a point, why not implement it in game? We get that NPC kills from the API is "an advantage provided by a 3rd party tool" so why not give everyone that advantage and implement the feature in game? Surely that would be to everyones benefit, right?

Have a look at the probes thread.
Aprilon Dynasty
#573 - 2014-05-11 15:15:45 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:


So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


So, i have an idea that would enable both parties to still have access to data :P

Move the system kill information to the system information window for W-space, BUT have it delayed to reflect that concord doesn't have fast access to the data in w-space due to its lack of gates, at the end of the day concord still generates killmails for kills in w-space and pend insurance still pays out for ship losses there, so its not even logical to assume that w-space is a complete unknown to both of thse NPC entities

This way you could have "some" idea of activity in WH space via the API and system information window but still allow that air of unknown with it being delayed, just my 2 cents ofc :P
Odin's Call
#574 - 2014-05-11 16:13:11 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


So, i have an idea that would enable both parties to still have access to data :P


Sorry, what you were looking for is called Glimpse Probes
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2014-05-12 01:59:49 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D


So, i have an idea that would enable both parties to still have access to data :P


Sorry, what you were looking for is called Glimpse Probes


I like this. I know this is the wrong place to post it, but wouldn't this step on the grounds of combat scanning? I'll post this in that topic section as well.


I guess I can't really say much, I've been in Wormholes for nearly 2 years now. I live in a Class 2, with dual statics. I've come across more empty holes, than occupied ones. When I do hit a c4 - c6, I usually find actives. Just last night, I ran into a asian group of guys, 20+ actives.

When I stated that wspace was dying, it was more for the c1 - c3. The other idea is to change Black Holes.

I just don't see wormholes getting the love they deserve. I mean, with all the new editions to nullsec, alliance owned stargates, and new conquerable space. What do wspace gets? Anyways, I'll stop posting, and read the responses now.
TOHA Conglomerate
#576 - 2014-05-12 12:29:19 UTC
Zenzija wrote:

When I stated that wspace was dying, it was more for the c1 - c3.

I just don't see wormholes getting the love they deserve. I mean, with all the new editions to nullsec, alliance owned stargates, and new conquerable space. What do wspace gets? Anyways, I'll stop posting, and read the responses now.


I would argue that the reason that c1-c3 w-space is empty is because c4-c6 corps (like mine and many others) ruthlessly murder anyone we find in w-space.

c1-c3 holes tend to attract PVEers (on the whole) who are the easiest to attack without risk.

I would not be surprised if the majority of c1-c3 residents are tired of being slaughtered to the sound of the maniacal cackling of prepubescent teenagers who take out their unfulfilled desire for recognition in the real world on the weak and defenceless, and have left to seek an easier fortune elsewhere.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Odin's Call
#577 - 2014-05-12 16:36:52 UTC
Zenzija wrote:
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Sorry, what you were looking for is called Glimpse Probes


I like this. I know this is the wrong place to post it, but wouldn't this step on the grounds of combat scanning? I'll post this in that topic section as well.


Read the topic again. This does not have anything to do with combat scanning. Combat probes find ships, drones, etc. The glimpse probes find debris and offers a mechanic to guestimate the age of said wreckage. It cannot find ships, signatures, or anything, for that matter, to warp to.
Odin's Call
#578 - 2014-05-12 16:37:45 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

c1-c3 holes tend to attract PVEers (on the whole) who are the easiest to attack without risk.


C2 with a C2 / C3 or LS statics tend to favor a lot of small PvP entities as well for the very same reason.
C C P Alliance
#579 - 2014-05-12 16:53:41 UTC
Hello again,

I hope you all had a wonderful weekend. I said that the game design department would have another review of this proposal here on Monday, and that meeting has come and gone.

The conclusions of the meeting, and having talked to the CSM9, is that we WILL be removing WHs from the kills endpoint. This means that NPC, pod, and ship kill counts for WH systems will no longer be available from the EVE API.

This is a change that should hopefully ship with Kronos.

We do appreciate all of the feedback provided on this topic as we work on the goal of creating a balanced hunter/hunted environment.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Greater D.U.S.K. Coalition
#580 - 2014-05-12 16:57:21 UTC
Will we be getting the all kill reports end point for Kronos?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Forum Jump