Player Features and Ideas Discussion

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[CSM] New Eden Social Club

First post
#1 - 2014-07-01 14:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mangala Solaris
Those of you who joined in the first CSM 9 Town Hall back on June 22nd will have heard me say that I wished to run a project relating to any potential future corporation/alliance revamp, and how such a thing could benefit the numerous social groups in EVE.

Well here I am.

First up what do I mean by "social groups". Usually these are 2 or more individuals with a shared interest coming together to undertake that interest outside of other ties, familial or employment related. Borrowing from wikipedia (I know, I know), I found this list of definitions which works even better:

Common motives and goals
An accepted division of labor, i.e. roles
Established status (social rank, dominance) relationships
Accepted norms and values with reference to matters relevant to the group
Development of accepted sanctions (praise and punishment) if and when norms were respected or violated

In EVE terms, the following are what I would class as the prime examples of social groups (outside of corporations and alliance, which is a whole other ballgame):

  • Incursion communities such as Warp to Me, Incursion Shiny Network or The Ditanian Fleet and many many more.
  • NPSI / Open Roam groups like RvB Ganked, Spectre Fleet, Redemption Roams or Stille Gewalt
  • Groups from outside communities that wish to enjoy EVE's content together without leaving the potentially disparate corporations they are in. Examples being the SIG's famous in the CFC, forum based groups like those in the Teamminmatar channel, shared language communities and so on.

For those interested in my current thoughts on the issue have moved beyond simply allowing the creation of truly public fleets. Currently I would love to see social groups/communities in EVE be more than a chat channel and potentially a mailing list.

This could be done by merging both of those as the key systems the group coalesces around, with membership of one granting immediate access to the other. Combine this with greater granularity of roles for those assigned them by the community. Roles that potentially allow some people to moderate the chat, some to moderate the mail systems, or others to form fleets that any members of that community can access just like they would a corporation fleet, fleets that can inherit standings from their FCs, that have built in kill logs, allows some people to post operations in a group calendar (rather than relying on outside sites and tools) and so on and so on. Effectively a corporation without the shared assets, hangars, taxes, and all the other useful aspects that cause people to come together under a corporate banner.

This is where I need feedback. I have my own ideas, some of which I have wrote about above and in the past on my weekly Crossing Zebras column, but the larger the level of feedback the better.

When providing feedback try to use concise explanations, with plenty of obvious keywords, this will make it easier to scan and get that feedback centralised for when and if the time comes.
The Learn
#2 - 2014-07-01 16:47:06 UTC
So the merging chat channels and mailing lists is one cool thing, but it would be super cool if there were shared calendar events for these social groups too. Calendar events are accessible through the API if memory serves, so that could help tie in social groups with community websites.
#3 - 2014-07-01 17:45:18 UTC
Fantastic idea. Adding a layer of organization that runs perpendicular to the vertical system of Corporation > Alliance would be a great benefit to the community. As someone who originally joined EVE from a forum group where not all members of the forum group were members of the same corporation, and had to deal with the opsec concerns and issues that came up, I can attest to the difficulty and stupidity associated with maintaining all of those relationships at once. It also unfortunately fragmented the original forum community to an unacceptable level.

There would be a fair amount of interface and mechanical overhead in implementing this, but I think it can be made intuitive and helpful. Furthermore, with the new style of release cycles, it would be possible to implement changes in discrete chunks; you don't have to eat the whole pie at once.

First steps could be something as simple as being able to join the proposed "social club," with such memberships displayed in addition to the existing standings systems. So if I join RvB Ganked, Mangala's normal standing ticker, be it red, orange, or blue, gets outlined in yellow, indicating that, regardless of how our standings are set, we're in the same association.

Great plan, and I'm looking forward to seeing what can and can't be done in this arena to push EVE ever forward!

Certified purveyor of the High Life.

Coalition of the Unfortunate
#4 - 2014-07-01 19:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
It would make life in Spectre a whole lot easier if we could at least post public fleet adverts. I don't expect them to be visible in fleet finder, but clicking on a link in chat to join a public fleet would be a huge time saver.


* Setting one fleet "blue" to another fleet. This would probably entail broadcasting the fleet_id along with the rest of the ship instance data. In reality blue is probably a bad choice, we probably need one colour for fleet allies, and one colour for fleet hostiles.

* Automatic posting of killmails to the chat window. We sometimes have problems where major kills go unposted because whoever got the final kill does not have their API set. This is more common in NPSI, where there's lots of independent people, and it's much rarer to have a corp key entered for pulling kills.
Snuffed Out
#5 - 2014-07-01 20:01:06 UTC
It'll be interesting to see how this plays in with the idea of the Corporation in the EVE sandbox.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

#6 - 2014-07-01 20:49:22 UTC
I'd love a Temporary standing system.

For EG a +10/-10 addition to your contacts that will expire after a set amount of hours. That would be helpful.

A "Chat Channel Fleet Finder"

And a "Chat Channel Ingame Calendar"

All those things would be awesome for NPSI folks.
Paisti Syndicate
#7 - 2014-07-01 21:30:18 UTC
The way I see it, here could be a good change to make the calendar a bit more useful than what it is right now.
There could be an option to subscribe for calendar events (much like mailing lists today), but in addition to the regular ganked mail for example, you would also get a calendar invite for the fleet. It would ask whether you would want to participate or not and you would answer correspondingly (no pop-up windows though, just a blinking calendar!). The admin(s) of that list would be able to see the participants beforehand and when the op goes live and the fc creates the fleet, he/she would be able to create an advert for a specific calendar list. Then all the participants who expressed their desire to join would receive a fleet invitation (if they are not in any fleet at that moment, if they are the invitation would bounce as usual and they would have to apply the "hard way" of xing in channel. Though I believe it should be made so that the fc would not receive any rejection notifications when inviting people this way.)

This would greatly reduce the need of manually xing and inviting people to fleet, and should shorten the wait time between form-up and departure. Also, if you can see the op times from your calendar you don't need to have a kilometer long motd in channel Blink
I'm sure that the mailing lists and calendar lists could be optimized quite a bit to create the most effective solution (ability to answer for an invite by clicking yes/no/maybe in mail, ability to pick your role in the fleet when responding etc..). In addition to the public npsi -communities I believe this could also help many alliances to plan and form their fleets more effectively.

Well, this is just my two cents for this conversation, I also like the proposals for temporary standings and other stuff you guys have been proposing here.
Anyways, hope to see you all in space, purple or otherwise Pirate
#8 - 2014-07-02 03:21:07 UTC
Firstly, I'd like to see bookmarks become part of the new Saved Fleet Settings function. So to explain it further, there would be a list of saved bookmarks that become available to everyone in a fleet upon joinign that fleet. You could also have an option to quickly copy these bookmarks to personal, corporation or future alliance bookmarks.

For example the MATE roams usually head down the same or similar areas of space around Stacmon and Synidcate. It would be great if once we get into fleet everyone can see gate and other celestial tacticals this would be a hell of a lot easier than copying bookmarks repeatedly into cans for people.

Another function that would be good is a shared fittings list linked back to the mailing list. The intro mail only allows for a certain amount of characters. ;)

Sorry if anyone has already mentioned these I'm at work and didnt have time to read all the posts so far. ;)

Director Swift Angels Alliance INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

#9 - 2014-07-02 03:22:27 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
It would make life in Spectre a whole lot easier if we could at least post public fleet adverts. I don't expect them to be visible in fleet finder, but clicking on a link in chat to join a public fleet would be a huge time saver.

A BIG +1 here

Director Swift Angels Alliance INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-07-02 04:00:30 UTC
Having channels like Spectre fleet and RVBganked in the channels list under NPSI Communities would be HUGE and would solidify both of their places. Should the channels ever fail they could easily be patched out.

I say this as chans like EVERADIO and EVETV have this why not us?

New Eden Spotlight full episode list.

Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2014-07-02 06:50:31 UTC
Love this idea. As much as this will help in-game groups it would also be great for the community stuff we do with EVE Down Under to organise events both in- and out-of-game.

As for contributing specific suggestions, well I'll have to give that some thought, but for now let me just say I fully support Mangala's idea in principle.

EVE Down Under - a community for players in the AUTZ

In-game channel: evedownunder // Twitter: @evedownunder

Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2014-07-02 11:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Koz Katral
- Publicly listed chat channels for registered communities under a tab for 'Incursion Groups' and 'Public Fleets' with applications to be listed regulated by the ISD.

- The ability to see active fleets posted in the fleet finder if you are a member of these chat channels (with the option to disable
invites - allowing people to see that they exist and are active, but not overload them with invite requests)

- Ability to set standings with other fleets (based on a fleet ID like sentient suggested). These standings would clear once that fleet ID ceases to exist.

- Ability to post calender events for a chat channel

- Make the calender a more visible and prominent tool with better notifications to improve its usage and make it more meaningful.

The biggest two benefactors of these changes would obviously be Incursion Groups and NPSI groups - however, you could also incorporate both of these things into the new player experience and clearly explain what they do in a way to drive people towards the sandbox as talked about at fanfest. Spectre Fleet and RVB Ganked have very low entry requirements for pvp fleets (pretty much none) and would be an awesome way of getting new players who are interested in PVP involved in what can initially seem a very intimidating aspect of the game.

I know alot of the incursion communities will take fairly low sp battleship fits along if they are fit correctly and its a great way of getting PVE minded individuals (your average mission bear as it were) socialising and trying out a more complex aspect of the game. I think if incursions were more visible alot of these people 'levelling their raven' would see them as a more preferable alternative. Right now I'm not sure those people even know incursions exist, let alone how to do one.
#13 - 2014-07-02 12:55:53 UTC
Somewhat related to "Ability to set standings with other fleets" (great idea, Koz Katral), having a way to prevent disconnects from being killed by their own NPSI fleet. How many times do we hear the FC saying, "pilot-X is friendly! don't shoot him!" after a DC.

Also, when we do big operations with multiple fleets (e.g. last Sunday and Ganked 100) we had some issues with shooting each other. Koz Katral's idea seems to fix this nicely too.
Solyaris Chtonium
#14 - 2014-07-02 17:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tommas Crowbarius
Billius Zabub wrote:
Somewhat related to "Ability to set standings with other fleets" (great idea, Koz Katral), having a way to prevent disconnects from being killed by their own NPSI fleet. How many times do we hear the FC saying, "pilot-X is friendly! don't shoot him!" after a DC.

Also, when we do big operations with multiple fleets (e.g. last Sunday and Ganked 100) we had some issues with shooting each other. Koz Katral's idea seems to fix this nicely too.

I agree with Billius Zabub, both friendly fire on DC’d pilots as well as friendly fire of multiple fleets working together have been major issues and some solution to them would be nice.

Another thing that would be nice to see is a way to track kills for battles where one or more of the opponents are made up from a public fleet and multiple corps that may not normally fly together. Right now you can look at killboards to see how a corp or alliance did in a battle but there should be an ability to track how a “fleet" did in an engagement versus another fleet.

And for that matter how a public/NPSI community did overall (all fleets they ran in a month, etc) would be nice to be able to track.
#15 - 2014-07-02 17:38:32 UTC
Essentially, you are asking for all of the rewards of forming a corporation without the risk associated with it.
The Learn
#16 - 2014-07-02 18:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Dostoevsky
EI Digin wrote:
Essentially, you are asking for all of the rewards of forming a corporation without the risk associated with it.

All the rewards besides:

  • Tax collection
  • Shared unleavable chat
  • Corp hangars/offices
  • The ability to join alliances
  • The ability to make contracts that are accessible to anyone in the group
  • The ability to (as a director) know where anyone is at any time
  • The ability to set up starbases
  • The ability to share blueprints and blueprint copies in a reasonably sensible manner

In exchange you get:

  • The ability to more easily form fleets and plan events without getting carpal tunnel syndrome.
  • An all-inclusive information buffet for anyone who wants to spy on you.

Ayup, totally all of the benefits and none of the risks.
#17 - 2014-07-02 18:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: EI Digin
You conveniently forgot

  • The ability to declare war and to be declared on

Which by and large is the reason why you aren't forming a corporation to begin with.
The Learn
#18 - 2014-07-02 19:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Dostoevsky
EI Digin wrote:
You conveniently forgot

  • The ability to declare war and to be declared on

Which by and large is the reason why you aren't forming a corporation to begin with.

Ummmm, no.

Okay, so let's use RvB Ganked as an example of a social group. RvB Ganked wouldn't work as a corporation. The point of RvB Ganked is that it is a group where anyone can join up to get some pew outside of their corporation. I wouldn't want to join RvB Ganked if it were a corporation, I fly with them as a break from small gang stuff and not logging in. RvB Ganked does not exist as a thing to avoid wardecs.

Unrelated sidenote: Cool shirt, yo.
#19 - 2014-07-02 19:14:26 UTC
lol, PL lands on grid and the mood changes. (just kidding)

I agree that war-dec immunity is an advantage to NPSI groups. Though, war-decs are fairly broken anyway. I'd likely just move to a NPC corp if war-dec'd regardless.

NPSI could be seen as a threat to other playstyles (e.g the more serious, territorial corp/alliance focused styles). Also, the NPSI groups tend to roam or hotdrop on whoever and thus could be seen as griefers. Though, in many cases the big battles we end up in are arranged in some way and mutual (BNI and many others have been great about this). Most players like getting in a big space battle--win or lose--because it's fun.

That's the key idea behind NPSI and it's something that could help open EVE up to more people: lighter: more accessible pvp. Pvp is a lot of fun/excitement and EVE has a great system for it. But, there are arguably many barriers one has to overcome before getting into enjoyable pvp. These open NPSI fleets provide one of the easiest ways to jump right in.

Did CCP intend for Corp/Alliances to have risk/reward trade-offs or was the intention to give players a way to work together. Also, with the general understanding that players who socialize in game keep playing longer. Why not promote lighter social connections. I see NPSI groups as a potential gateway into pvp (more enjoyable, sustaining play) for newer players and bored carebears.

CCP Rise's New Player Experience project should consider what these NPSI groups are doing and perhaps find a way to integrate or encourage these lighter, easier pvp groups so that new players will be more likely to get hooked on the best part of EVE.

Mangala has a ton of experience with NPSI fleets thus his position on the CSM can continue to do a lot of good for the game.

I'm a Ganked addict myself. I had been a bored carebear and even now I'm fairly casual. It has been great to be able to jump in on some major action most Saturdays. I've had some fun with Spectre and Redemption fleets too. There are lots of great players and FCs involved with these groups. It's a part of EVE that will hopefully grow and help give more players access to some of the most fun parts of the game.
#20 - 2014-07-02 19:34:02 UTC
At the end of the day, the entire corp/alliance mechanic must be redone from the ground up because the way social groups form and interact with eachother within the last 10 years has changed. A bandaid solution as suggested by OP would not solve the issue, I think that it would result in more abuse of the currently broken system.

I think that one of the things to investigate as a short-term solution would be the ability to join multiple corps at the same time, however I think that this isn't doable with the current codebase.
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