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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

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Gallente Federation
#201 - 2014-08-13 05:34:29 UTC
Can at least the d-scan be removed in WHs or anomalies be scannable so theres some time to react? Jumping interceptor through gives you nearly no time to react unless you furiousl click spam dscan.
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-08-13 12:43:51 UTC
Mal Nina wrote:
As still others have stated for the millionth time: rollback the previous changes and get rid of the automated scanning in WH space. it should be dark and scary there and unless you are willing to uncloak and put out probes then you will not know half of what is in a system. Make sigs have to be scanned again. That was a great system and stood the test of time. Not sure why you will not even entertain turning back the hand of time and admitting that the old system worked and was better. Nothing I have seen deployed or mentioned works as well as it did.

You don't even need to rollback the changes. Let K-space have the easy-to-do stuff.

The server has to do work to come up with the sigs to show in the scanner window. Queries against the database determine what gets shown.

The database tracks what type of signature is in any given system at any given time as well as tracking what each player knows about ... unless the server is trusting the client for that (hopefully not!). The server also tracks where you are located so it knows which signatures to pull; K-space is one universe ID, W-space is another; there is NO way to get the two confused.

A few lines of code extra (maybe) to set up the proper SQL statement(s) to identify universe and scan status, and you have your list of sigs. Then there's the testing and debugging, etc., but there are not NEARLY the code changes Fozzie is proposing in the intro post unless CCP's programmers are completely incompetent, which I find hard to believe.

What would change is that people would need to drop probes again and have a dedicated scanner again. I don't see that as a bad thing: the vigilant are rewarded, the slackers are punished. That is (or was) the rule of W-space.

Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Can at least the d-scan be removed in WHs or anomalies be scannable so theres some time to react? Jumping interceptor through gives you nearly no time to react unless you furiousl click spam dscan.

W-space is (supposed to be) dangerous. If you are diligent, and are careful, you should be rewarded with success, no matter whether you are the hunter or whether you are the intended prey. Your scout should be watching dscan and looking for probes, while your farmers gather in the Sleeper loot.

Lately, I've seen some really creative approaches by site runners to avoid combat. That's a good thing. It makes the hunt much more rewarding.

Maybe you have not lived in W-space long time. With Odyssey, CCP made it Nullsec-easy to avoid incoming threats. We are asking for a return to W-space difficulty. And don't worry, those of us who hunt here also carebear here. The changes will affect us just as much as they affect you.

(We are also asking for low-class rewards to be adjusted upward and mining sites to be returned to scan sites as well)
C C P Alliance
#203 - 2014-08-13 13:32:14 UTC
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-08-13 13:53:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


and if i probe the WH and choose not to warp to it on my side? WIll it become invisible on the other side?
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-08-13 13:54:56 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Mal Nina wrote:
As still others have stated for the millionth time: rollback the previous changes and get rid of the automated scanning in WH space. it should be dark and scary there and unless you are willing to uncloak and put out probes then you will not know half of what is in a system. Make sigs have to be scanned again. That was a great system and stood the test of time. Not sure why you will not even entertain turning back the hand of time and admitting that the old system worked and was better. Nothing I have seen deployed or mentioned works as well as it did.

You don't even need to rollback the changes. Let K-space have the easy-to-do stuff.

The server has to do work to come up with the sigs to show in the scanner window. Queries against the database determine what gets shown.

The database tracks what type of signature is in any given system at any given time as well as tracking what each player knows about ... unless the server is trusting the client for that (hopefully not!). The server also tracks where you are located so it knows which signatures to pull; K-space is one universe ID, W-space is another; there is NO way to get the two confused.

A few lines of code extra (maybe) to set up the proper SQL statement(s) to identify universe and scan status, and you have your list of sigs. Then there's the testing and debugging, etc., but there are not NEARLY the code changes Fozzie is proposing in the intro post unless CCP's programmers are completely incompetent, which I find hard to believe.

What would change is that people would need to drop probes again and have a dedicated scanner again. I don't see that as a bad thing: the vigilant are rewarded, the slackers are punished. That is (or was) the rule of W-space.

Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Can at least the d-scan be removed in WHs or anomalies be scannable so theres some time to react? Jumping interceptor through gives you nearly no time to react unless you furiousl click spam dscan.

W-space is (supposed to be) dangerous. If you are diligent, and are careful, you should be rewarded with success, no matter whether you are the hunter or whether you are the intended prey. Your scout should be watching dscan and looking for probes, while your farmers gather in the Sleeper loot.

Lately, I've seen some really creative approaches by site runners to avoid combat. That's a good thing. It makes the hunt much more rewarding.

Maybe you have not lived in W-space long time. With Odyssey, CCP made it Nullsec-easy to avoid incoming threats. We are asking for a return to W-space difficulty. And don't worry, those of us who hunt here also carebear here. The changes will affect us just as much as they affect you.

(We are also asking for low-class rewards to be adjusted upward and mining sites to be returned to scan sites as well)


Right, 30 months in WH, not long time. I guess.
POint is - you see the new signature only when ship is through. Even if your scout is watching, half competent hunter is already warping to you (dscan, anomalies, distance, warpto, few seconds). Unless scout is furiously reloading and checking, not a chance. Not to mention rather huge systems where you might not be able to even spot anything.

Its clear advantage to hunter,, but dscan in WH is silly. No local, but all telling scan.
Sleeper Social Club
#206 - 2014-08-13 13:55:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.
Illusion of Solitude
#207 - 2014-08-13 13:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.



That looks just about perfect.

Also great limited use of the RNG, solid understandable mechanic, with only the exact time of appearance determined by a formula amended by an uncertain variable.

Completely consistent with wormholes being about physics and not luck or "magic".

Stunningly good implementation.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

#208 - 2014-08-13 14:10:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


As a thought, what if the "invisible" K162 could be Combat-Scanned upon spawning. Some form of "proto-wormhole" beacon that had an extremely small signature and would require a very high-level combat scanner to 100% it.

This would mean that the decision to warp to a wormhole still has meaning; An active party on the other side *could* know it is there, if they have combats out and are actively scanning for potential connections. On the other hand, without a very high level of scanning skill/implants/rigs etc. it would be very difficult to form a response, as the K162 would not be easily scanned down UNTIL someone had jumped through it.

My apologies if this had already been brought up, I could not find the idea with the search engine.

Respectfully,
~Kyra
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-08-13 14:15:35 UTC
Kyra Kurai wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


As a thought, what if the "invisible" K162 could be Combat-Scanned upon spawning. Some form of "proto-wormhole" beacon that had an extremely small signature and would require a very high-level combat scanner to 100% it.

This would mean that the decision to warp to a wormhole still has meaning; An active party on the other side *could* know it is there, if they have combats out and are actively scanning for potential connections. On the other hand, without a very high level of scanning skill/implants/rigs etc. it would be very difficult to form a response, as the K162 would not be easily scanned down UNTIL someone had jumped through it.

My apologies if this had already been brought up, I could not find the idea with the search engine.

Respectfully,
~Kyra


Some sort of safeguard agaisnt the non spawning, as described in 2 posts above, would be cool. This one mebbeh too.
Sleeper Social Club
#210 - 2014-08-13 14:24:24 UTC
In fact this makes matters even worse. Now you can simply farm your heart out without anyone being able to come up your static chain. The timer for spawning both sides of a WH that has not even been warped to should be max 20 minutes. Having 7+ hours of perfect safety and total isolation from the rest of New Eden is just ridiculous.
C C P Alliance
#211 - 2014-08-13 14:26:12 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Illusion of Solitude
#212 - 2014-08-13 14:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.



So pleased to see how much you are all listening, to us and to the CSM.
Please continue, it is very reassuring.Smile

Edit :- comment withdrawn, after the town hall, I can not have the confidence that my comment above reflects reality.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Gallente Federation
#213 - 2014-08-13 14:35:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.


So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?
C C P Alliance
#214 - 2014-08-13 14:52:52 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.


So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?


Other people's statics can connect to your system, and random wormholes (including the new small ship wormholes) can also connect at any time.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Sleeper Social Club
#215 - 2014-08-13 14:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Axloth Okiah
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.
Why not fix the "isolation problem" right away and simply spawn both sides of every hole after a short timer? This change and multi-hour timers lean very heavily towards making isolating oneself even more effective. It is more than enough time to farm all your home sites and you, instead of fixing the problem of people shutting themselves off, introduce additional timer on top of that to provide even longer window of near-total safety (as the chances of getting rolled into are negligible as opposed to being found by people scouting their chain).

Whats the reasoning behind 9+ hours? How is that going to help promote conflict and interaction between players if anyone can simply choose to not have a wormhole spawn for so many hours? Unless you intend to increase the amount of random connections more than 10-fold, this will lead to shorter and more barren chains full of invisible and unspawned connections.

The slightly shorter early warning will not offset that either, as that problem lies in the overlay itself, not the K162 spawning mechanics. If you want to fix the early warning problem, simply introduce a short timer (tens of minutes, not hours) during which freshly spawned WH sigs will not show up on the overlay and need to be manually scanned. After the timer is over, they will autopopulate as they do now. This will give gankers their time window to kill farmers who dont pay attention, without ruining the convenience of Odyssey changes.

But thats a different issue. It seems to me you have a perfect opportunity to elegantly fix the isolation issue, but instead you are trying to fix a different problem using a wrong tool for the job, while making the isolation even worse as a side-effect.
Chao3 Alliance
#216 - 2014-08-13 14:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Kyra Kurai wrote:
]

As a thought, what if the "invisible" K162 could be Combat-Scanned upon spawning. Some form of "proto-wormhole" beacon that had an extremely small signature and would require a very high-level combat scanner to 100% it.

,
~Kyra

No, it would not be a good idea as it defeats the purpose of the changes.
You could immediately see a new sig by having combat probes out.

THe current changes are good as they are, and the k162 appearing after first jump or within 1 to 7 hours after being warped to on the other side is a good solution!

The nice thing is that it will work the same in k-space, and null carebear will have less warning of incoming too.....

Really like all these changes!

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

#217 - 2014-08-13 14:57:44 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.


So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?

it has always been this way. other people's static can still roll into you, now you just get less warning meaning its less safe than it aleady was to make isk. add to that the uncollapsable frig holes hole... yea.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

#218 - 2014-08-13 15:15:19 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Kyra Kurai wrote:
]

As a thought, what if the "invisible" K162 could be Combat-Scanned upon spawning. Some form of "proto-wormhole" beacon that had an extremely small signature and would require a very high-level combat scanner to 100% it.

,
~Kyra

No, it would not be a good idea as it defeats the purpose of the changes.
You could immediately see a new sig by having combat probes out.

THe current changes are good as they are, and the k162 appearing after first jump or within 1 to 7 hours after being warped to on the other side is a good solution!

The nice thing is that it will work the same in k-space, and null carebear will have less warning of incoming too.....

Really like all these changes!


I agree the specified changes are good. If everything proceeded as specified it would certainly be a workable solution, and better overall for my play style.

The one thing I don't like in a change is a loss of a critical decision. If I am out scouting, I have to decide weather or not I warp to a wormhole. Do I bookmark all the signatures as I scan? Or do I warp to each WH sig as soon as I get it locked down?

As it stands with these changes, there is virtually no cost to a scanner to warp to each hole as scanned. Opening the hole within several hours is great, I love that. But several hours is an eternity in game time. Having a critical decision adds meaning to that "warp to" button when you hit the signature. A good scout will know what the spawning mechanism does, and be ready to hop through immediately (under the current system).

I never really "liked" the change that lead to the current state, but it created an interesting decision tree for a scout.

What I am proposing, is that there still be a way to detect the signatures once warp is initiated, but that it can't be done passively. Either an alt will have to be babysat with the "Scan" button hit every 5 seconds (which detracts from attention paid to site running) or a player has to have that as their "job" to just sit and watch for new signatures.
Some people will, some people won't.
Either way, your decision on ~when~ you warp to the wormhole has meaning. You might slip in, grab tackle and get the kills, knowing your planning lead you to evade their detection, or you arrive to see combats and wrecks on D, and a bunch of people sitting in a PoS because you warped to each signature to see what it was before falling through.

I love this game because even small decisions can have a meaningful impact on the course of events.

Respectfully,
~Kyra
#219 - 2014-08-13 15:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Why not fix the "isolation problem" right away and simply spawn both sides of every hole after a short timer? This change and multi-hour timers lean very heavily towards making isolating oneself even more effective. It is more than enough time to farm all your home sites and you, instead of fixing the problem of people shutting themselves off, introduce additional timer on top of that to provide even longer window of near-total safety (as the chances of getting rolled into are negligible as opposed to being found by people scouting their chain).

Whats the reasoning behind 7+ hours? How is that going to help promote conflict and interaction between players if anyone can simply choose to not have a wormhole spawn for so many hours? Unless you intend to increase the amount of random connections more than 10-fold, this will lead to shorter and more barren chains full of invisible and unspawned connections.

The slightly shorter early warning will not offset that either, as that problem lies in the overlay itself, not the K162 spawning mechanics. If you want to fix the early warning problem, simply introduce a short timer (tens of minutes, not hours) during which freshly spawned WH sigs will not show up on the overlay and need to be manually scanned. After the timer is over, they will autopopulate as they do now. This will give gankers their time window to kill farmers who dont pay attention, without ruining the convenience of Odyssey changes.

But thats a different issue. It seems to me you have a perfect opportunity to elegantly fix the isolation issue, but instead you are trying to fix a different problem using a wrong tool for the job, while making the isolation even worse as a side-effect.


This does to a degree "fix" the isolation problem as if someone opens into you mid site then you have far less of a chance to get everything safe before the potential hostiles are in a position to attack you, forced spawning of the k162 side - beyond a safeguard to make sure that it is spawned eventually if someone interacts with the outgoing side - won't fix anything as people won't collapse their statics but just mass them to as low mass as possible instead which just as effectively isolates them.

Would be nice if there was some delay on the k162 showing on the overlay though (should always be probable from the moment it first exists).

The better way to approach this problem IMO is to incentivise people to have their static open and not massed if I was really evil I'd suggest that escalations don't spawn if the static is unspawned :D but that wouldn't help with lower class wormholes and I dislike changes which effectively take away a current reward mechanism. Maybe add some random extra value spawns to waves if the static is health similar to the way you get random Angel Overseer spawns on some level 4 missions, etc. and likewise maybe a chance of a 5th escalation wave on C5/6 escalations if the static is healthy.
#220 - 2014-08-13 15:41:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

STUFF

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.



So a null bear will still be able to warp to a freshly scanned wh, hit show info and decide it is too dangerous/deadly to jump into a warp off with no risk. Sure it will open sometime, but easily not until after the null bear has left the system or had plenty of time to organize whatever they choose to organize?


Let me streamline it for you. A null connection is scanned down. Null guy warps to it. Hit's show info.

If it comes up a C1 - C3 allow the scanner to select a 'give isk' option (100mil for C1, 300 mil for C2, and 500 mil for C3 sounds about right). Wallet flashes, wh despawns and the null bear can continue questing for more isk.

If it comes up a C4 - C6 allow scanner to select 'avert risk' option. Wh despawns immediately.

This will cut out the need for the null scanner to go get his tengu/ishtar and farm the lower class wh and for the higher class wh it will cut out the need to type tales of the danger in the intel channels and the need to avoid the now dangerous wh containing system.

You need to consider all the lost ratting/mining hours lost to fear of being ganked. Those wasted hours will just go away. Null bears will rejoice and rainbows and isk will spill out from thier full full wallets. Null will settle into yet a deeper slumber and plex prices will redouble.

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