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Problem being podded? (just a warning to others with expensive pods)

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#61 Posted: 2011.12.07 18:39  |  Edited by: gfldex
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.


That might be the reason why you wrote the following bullshit.

GM Homonoia wrote:
Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so.


It used to work so well that anybody in his right mind was doing it all the time. That has changed. Why was it changed? Was it a side effect or a change of policy. If it is the former it's a bug. If it's the latter it needs to be in the patch notes.

GM Homonoia wrote:
Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.


I don't know what kind of computers you are using but I can't think of any text program that would fail to process the input buffer so hard that a human being could outperform it. I'm terribly sorry but you reasoning can only be seen as a fairly bad compilation of lame excuses.

Edit: It would be nice to be allowed to post on this forum without having to take any post into the clipboard to prevent it from being eaten by a bug.
If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Clockwork Pineapple
#62 Posted: 2011.12.07 18:43
gfldex wrote:


That might be the reason why you wrote the following bullshit.


It used to work so well that anybody in his right mind was doing it all the time. That has changed. Why was it changed? Was it a side effect or a change of policy. If it is the former it's a bug. If it's the latter it needs to be in the patch notes.


I don't know what kind of computers you are using but I can't think of any text program that would fail to process the input buffer so hard that a human being could outperform it. I'm terribly sorry but you reasoning can only be seen as a fairly bad compilation of lame excuses.

Edit: It would be nice to be allowed to post on this forum without having to take any post into the clipboard to prevent it from being eaten by a bug.


honestly I'm glad someone said it, but yeah...

that was a terrible answer
The Devil's Tattoo
#63 Posted: 2011.12.08 15:54
Near Death wrote:
I were once told by a GM when i petitioned something along the lines of #0's problems.

Insta-warping is not a feature of the game. It is a bug. You are supposed to be in a 30 second stasis period (atleast according to this GM) after your ship is shot. I ofcourse called bullsh!t on this and didn't care to take this further.

Anyway, this was an official response to a petition were I was unable to warp away after getting my ship shot to atoms.



This combined with the input from the other gm makes it sound like we are exploiting a bug to spam warp when you are about to lose your ship in order to get your pod out.

What is going on ccp is this exploiting a bug? Are we supposed to wait out the session timer before we warp our pod out? Why is the pod following the warp command that we actually gave our ship not the pod?

Is time dilation effecting this mechanic?

#64 Posted: 2011.12.08 15:58
Karn Dulake wrote:
Dangerous Dave

Only an Englishman could have a name like that. :)


Like op said, it's because they're behind the age Lol

Also: logs show nothing. Lol
Minmatar Republic
#65 Posted: 2011.12.08 16:34  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Two times in a row i didn't get podded by thrashers, after they popped my ship.
Odd. I wonder what you guys, who died, are doing wrong.

Only two times out of plenty it happened that the pods warped out before i had them pointed.
Odd. I wonder what the others, who i podded, were doing wrong.

*snickers* xD
Caldari State
#66 Posted: 2011.12.08 16:52  |  Edited by: Shad0wsFury
How shocked should I be that a GM doesn't seem to understand generally accepted game mechanics?

I probably should be far more shocked than I am, which is sad in itself.

It's pretty common sense that spamming leads to lag, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a tactic that worked, and for a very long time has been in common use. Maybe there were minor changes in some bit of code somewhere which changed how the whole thing works, intentional or not. Regardless the end result for the player is that a game mechanic changed.

It probably bears mentioning that what a CCP employee might see as a game mechanic and the definition a player might give to the same term are probably very different things. See, for me as a player, a game mechanic is simply the reality of how the game functions, which I can then build tactics AROUND to accomplish the things I wish to accomplish. These tactics are never fool proof, because no plan ever really is. On the other hand, CCP likely sees a game mechanic as transitory things which they can manipulate at any given time, for any given reason, to change the way the game functions. Both definitions are probably correct in some way.

However

When CCP goes and fiddles with things, even minor things, they often do not explain the change they made, or even acknowledge that they made a change at all. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST FRUSTRATING ASPECTS OF BEING A PLAYER. I'm cool with you changing whatever you want whenever you want, AS LONG AS YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU CHANGED. Such "ninja-nerfs" as they're called by players are getting very tiresome and increasingly frustrating. Be upfront with what you change, regardless of whether you deem it a bug or exploit or WHATEVER, and a lot of players will be a lot less agitated when you change little things like this. I realize a lot of work goes into big releases like Crucible, but seriously if you're not keeping records of EVERYTHING you change and how much work goes into any given item, then you really should be, and there should never be a reason to hide this information from the players. No, you shouldn't give them a list of known exploits, but when an exploit is fixed, it should never, ever, be a secret.

Also, your GMs clearly need more experience playing EVE, and that experience should be well-rounded, not just shooting players 23/7 or rocks 23/7 or running manufacturing jobs or any other single thing 23/7. And if you can't manage that, maybe you should assign specific GMs with specific experience to specific areas of interest like PvP, mining, et-cetera.

edit/ps. I've been running into this bug (?) since Incarna was released. I heard about it from some hardcore lowsec PvPers, and I eventually was in lowsec and got 0wned and tested it out, and ended up podded lol (luckily with no worthwhile implants).
The Devil's Tattoo
#67 Posted: 2011.12.08 17:01
Solstice Project wrote:
Two times in a row i didn't get podded by thrashers, after they popped my ship.
Odd. I wonder what you guys, who died, are doing wrong.

Only two times out of plenty it happened that the pods warped out before i had them pointed.
Odd. I wonder what the others, who i podded, were doing wrong.

*snickers* xD



That's the thing they may not have done anything wrong. If you spam warp whether you are podded or not has nothing to do with how you play the game. It has to do with things outside your (or your opponents) control. Like client and internet lag.

If the game worked reliably then there wouldn't be an issue. But it doesn't. Both sides can play the game exactly the same way and sometimes you can warp out sometimes you can't.

IMO that is a flaw in the game.
#68 Posted: 2011.12.09 08:26
Cearain wrote:
Near Death wrote:
I were once told by a GM when i petitioned something along the lines of #0's problems.

Insta-warping is not a feature of the game. It is a bug. You are supposed to be in a 30 second stasis period (atleast according to this GM) after your ship is shot. I ofcourse called bullsh!t on this and didn't care to take this further.

Anyway, this was an official response to a petition were I was unable to warp away after getting my ship shot to atoms.



This combined with the input from the other gm makes it sound like we are exploiting a bug to spam warp when you are about to lose your ship in order to get your pod out.

What is going on ccp is this exploiting a bug? Are we supposed to wait out the session timer before we warp our pod out? Why is the pod following the warp command that we actually gave our ship not the pod?

Is time dilation effecting this mechanic?



I think that GM message has been misinterpreted or taken out of context. After your ship is destroyed you go into a session change, namely moving from your ship to your pod. This means that you cannot jump, dock, or go through any other session change for 30 seconds (which is now 20 seconds). It is certainly not an exploit to spam the warp button.

Time dilation should not affect it.

And your pod following the command you gave your ship is most likely caused by the fact that often when you still see your ship on your screen, on the server you re already in your pod. Thus the server thinks you gave that command to your pod and not your ship, which was already removed server side.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
#69 Posted: 2011.12.09 08:32
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I had the same problem a few days ago. My blockade runner with double WCS (=4 warp strength) was scrambled by a single Rapier. When trying to warp away I got the error message, but it still said the warp drive was active. After a while I cancelled the warp, restarted it and warped away. Of course you don't have so much time in a pod.

A rather serious bug.

This is very accurate.

I lost a tengu one time the same way, tried to warp and initiated warp (bar full and after aligning done) however it stayed like that for a good 1 minute at least and never really got into warp itself, until they blew my ship.

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#70 Posted: 2011.12.09 08:33
gfldex wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.


That might be the reason why you wrote the following bullshit.

GM Homonoia wrote:
Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so.


It used to work so well that anybody in his right mind was doing it all the time. That has changed. Why was it changed? Was it a side effect or a change of policy. If it is the former it's a bug. If it's the latter it needs to be in the patch notes.

GM Homonoia wrote:
Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.


I don't know what kind of computers you are using but I can't think of any text program that would fail to process the input buffer so hard that a human being could outperform it. I'm terribly sorry but you reasoning can only be seen as a fairly bad compilation of lame excuses.

Edit: It would be nice to be allowed to post on this forum without having to take any post into the clipboard to prevent it from being eaten by a bug.


I may not be a programmer, but I have a very solid background in both software development and EVE; I would not comment on these things if I was completely clueless. I am aware that spamming the warp button greatly increased your chances of getting out. When I was simply a player and not a GM we told our alliance grunts to do exactly that. However, it was never a full proof thing. I lost quite a few pods despite that tactic.

We also did not change that 'mechanic', not consciously. Some code may have been introduced that affects that particular behavior as a side effect, but considering that behavior is partly there because the way client/server communication works across the internet, that possible behavioral change is more likely a technical thing and not a design change.

As I said earlier, this is not a game mechanic, but the way the technology behaves. If the tech is changes, behavior might change. However, even though it is not an official design, if the behavior changed in a way that is undesirable me and my colleagues will keep an eye on things. And any solid feedback is welcome.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
#71 Posted: 2011.12.09 08:41
Shad0wsFury wrote:

When CCP goes and fiddles with things, even minor things, they often do not explain the change they made, or even acknowledge that they made a change at all. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST FRUSTRATING ASPECTS OF BEING A PLAYER. I'm cool with you changing whatever you want whenever you want, AS LONG AS YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU CHANGED. Such "ninja-nerfs" as they're called by players are getting very tiresome and increasingly frustrating. Be upfront with what you change, regardless of whether you deem it a bug or exploit or WHATEVER, and a lot of players will be a lot less agitated when you change little things like this. I realize a lot of work goes into big releases like Crucible, but seriously if you're not keeping records of EVERYTHING you change and how much work goes into any given item, then you really should be, and there should never be a reason to hide this information from the players. No, you shouldn't give them a list of known exploits, but when an exploit is fixed, it should never, ever, be a secret.


As I said before, if the 'warp pod after ship destruction' behavior changed, then it was a side effect, not an intentional change. We try to list every possible change we make to our patch notes. Nothing is left out intentionally with the exception of certain exploits.

Shad0wsFury wrote:

Also, your GMs clearly need more experience playing EVE, and that experience should be well-rounded, not just shooting players 23/7 or rocks 23/7 or running manufacturing jobs or any other single thing 23/7. And if you can't manage that, maybe you should assign specific GMs with specific experience to specific areas of interest like PvP, mining, et-cetera.


We have specific GMs with specific specialties. We also have all-round GMs. Of course, some GMs are more experienced than others, bot those dealing with game play issues generally have quite a bit of EVE experience. Personally I have been playing since January 2006. I have flown almost every ship type, I have been in alliance leadership (space holding/conquering), I have been an industrialist and a PvPer, lived in NPC 0.0 and empire. The only things I have never really done is wormhole occupancy, T3 ships, suicide ganking and extensive mission running (mining ftw!)
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Gallente Federation
#72 Posted: 2011.12.09 08:50
Just set autopilot, and activate when boned. Ship dies and autopilot instawarps the egg to safteyBig smile
Goonswarm Federation
#73 Posted: 2011.12.09 09:04
Mining :cripes:
Ferguson Alliance
#74 Posted: 2011.12.09 09:16  |  Edited by: AkJon Ferguson
Fix your game, CCP. And stop giving lame answers that try to deflect blame to your customers. The log shows that the problem is on your end.

People spend billions of ISK on implants that they PVP in because they have enough confidence in themselves (and their internet connection) to risk being podded in the event they lose their ship. They shouldn't have to worry about being podded by your ****** software, too.

If I'm in a pod, not in a bubble, not pointed, not scrammed and I hit the warp-to button, and your server receives that input, I'd damn well better warp. Not sometimes. Not most of the time. Every ******* time.
#75 Posted: 2011.12.09 09:50
Homonoia, you are a great GM, and that explains why you replied like one Smile But the thread really needs an actual dev.

Spamming warp was not a 100% thing, and as a GM, you need to stick to that to avoid bogus reinbursement petitions. But for us, it is/was a 99% safe way to get the pod out. Out of almost 200 losses in empire, I've lost exactly 1 pod since I learned to spam warp. Most people who PVP, especially outside 0.0, take that into account when considering which implants to plug in.

If this behaviour changes (can't confirm that it has, haven't lost a ship in crucible yet), it will affect the risk/reward for expensive implant sets. You can argue whether that's good or bad, but it's a change that affects game balance.

Saying that spamming warp is taking advantage of a bug may be technically correct. But it's been there so long, and players have used it so much, it has become a feature. Not something you can dismiss as "hey it's not supposed to work".
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
#76 Posted: 2011.12.09 11:15  |  Edited by: Le Skunk
1) Given a standing start, A pod can warp before any ship gets a lock on it

2) If you click warp the instant your pod "appears" in space you can warp before anything has locked it

3) "spamming" warp was not an attempt to utilize some bug, it simply meant that the millisecond your pod appears you would have clicked to initiate warp. If you are clicking slightly before, during, and after your ship is being/been destroyed, you make it more likely you will have clicked warp the second your pod loadsThis cuts down on A) Reaction time and B) some of the weirdness that occurs when your ship pops and others may see your pod before you do. The "insta warp" refered to by some, is exactly the same warp out time you would have if you were D.A.R.Y.L and you managed to click the warp button once precisly when your pod appeared.

Incidentally, a good tackler will also be spam clicking to try to lock your pod as it appears.

4) Pre patch this method would work, as a previous poster has indicated, 99 times out of 100. There was still many ways to get podded, but preparedness and correct fits (a suitable soak) would give your implants a good survivability.

5) If post patch this does not work, then CCP have borked something.

Suggesting people were abusing the system by clicking impatiently is unfair. Similar situations whereby people click repeatedly are attempting to dock whilst under fire, and attempting to jump through a gate whilst sitting out an aggro timer under fire and when attempting to warp to a celestial whilst mwding away from a target who has them warp disrupted.

SKUNK
#77 Posted: 2011.12.09 11:32  |  Edited by: Bunnyy Lebowski
I think I am going to end up on top of a clock tower with a high powered sniper rifle picking off women and children if I keep seeing people attempt to make intelligent points while using the word "loose" when what they really mean is "lose".

It's not "loosing" your ship, it's "losing" your ship. Christ....


OH and BY THE WAY

It isn't "full proof" it's "fool proof" as in even a ****** can't screw it up.
Entrapped in a vile world, where the endgames all the same as every other...

...We're only here to die...
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
#78 Posted: 2011.12.09 11:34
Bunnyy Lebowski wrote:
I think I am going to end up on top of a clock tower with a high powered sniper rifle picking off women and children if I keep seeing people attempt to make intelligent points while using the word "loose" when what they really mean is "lose".

It's not "loosing" your ship, it's "losing" your ship. Christ....


I could care less

SKUNK
#79 Posted: 2011.12.09 11:38
Le Skunk wrote:
Bunnyy Lebowski wrote:
I think I am going to end up on top of a clock tower with a high powered sniper rifle picking off women and children if I keep seeing people attempt to make intelligent points while using the word "loose" when what they really mean is "lose".

It's not "loosing" your ship, it's "losing" your ship. Christ....


I could care less

SKUNK



And a herp derp to you too, sir!
Entrapped in a vile world, where the endgames all the same as every other...

...We're only here to die...
Caldari State
#80 Posted: 2011.12.09 12:08
Le Skunk wrote:
1) Given a standing start, A pod can warp before any ship gets a lock on it

2) If you click warp the instant your pod "appears" in space you can warp before anything has locked it

3) "spamming" warp was not an attempt to utilize some bug, it simply meant that the millisecond your pod appears you would have clicked to initiate warp. If you are clicking slightly before, during, and after your ship is being/been destroyed, you make it more likely you will have clicked warp the second your pod loadsThis cuts down on A) Reaction time and B) some of the weirdness that occurs when your ship pops and others may see your pod before you do. The "insta warp" refered to by some, is exactly the same warp out time you would have if you were D.A.R.Y.L and you managed to click the warp button once precisly when your pod appeared.

Incidentally, a good tackler will also be spam clicking to try to lock your pod as it appears.

4) Pre patch this method would work, as a previous poster has indicated, 99 times out of 100. There was still many ways to get podded, but preparedness and correct fits (a suitable soak) would give your implants a good survivability.

5) If post patch this does not work, then CCP have borked something.

Suggesting people were abusing the system by clicking impatiently is unfair. Similar situations whereby people click repeatedly are attempting to dock whilst under fire, and attempting to jump through a gate whilst sitting out an aggro timer under fire and when attempting to warp to a celestial whilst mwding away from a target who has them warp disrupted.

SKUNK


This is right on.

My guess is that some time in the last year they changed the client as part of the war against lag, so that when you hammer a button 50 times repeatedly it does not necessarily send all of those commands to the server.

This *would* help the lag situation, but would have the side effect of loosing the guaranteed insta-warp that pods had.


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