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Hey, CCP: Guess What?

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#1 Posted: 2011.12.11 20:59
Jumping from system to system alongside two hundred other people still lags out, even on a reinforced node.

Please analyze why it takes so long for people to jump from system to system and fix it, TIA.

TL;DR Taking three minutes to jump sucks because by then the fight's already over.
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
#2 Posted: 2011.12.11 20:59
Fix Lag wrote:
Jumping from system to system alongside two hundred other people still lags out, even on a reinforced node.

Please analyze why it takes so long for people to jump from system to system and fix it, TIA.

TL;DR Taking three minutes to jump sucks because by then the fight's already over.


*ping*

hu? Lol
#3 Posted: 2011.12.11 21:03
MY TRAFFIC CONTROL BACKBONE
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
#4 Posted: 2011.12.11 23:05
Stop blobbing and you'l do fine.
Clockwork Pineapple
#5 Posted: 2011.12.11 23:27
no lag here
get better internets and pooter
#6 Posted: 2011.12.12 00:10
Blobbing demands punishment and you are getting it.

This is why highsec is for the win

CCP are well aware of this and have devoted coders trying to ease this but thanks for telling everyone.

What you are doing is not PVP




TLDR; Die in a fire
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
RONA Directorate
#7 Posted: 2011.12.12 00:27
I think op answered its own question.

200 people at the same time + how many other people on the other side = always lag.
#8 Posted: 2011.12.12 03:51
The problem, surprisingly, isn't when we're actually fighting. CCP fixed that part, mostly. It's the switching systems that still sucks.

And shut the hell up about blobbing. People are not going to stop flying in fleets just because "oh, look, we already filled up 256 slots, guess I can't go--" That's ridiculous and you're an idiot if you think that.
CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
#9 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:18
Fix Lag wrote:
The problem, surprisingly, isn't when we're actually fighting. CCP fixed that part, mostly. It's the switching systems that still sucks.

And shut the hell up about blobbing. People are not going to stop flying in fleets just because "oh, look, we already filled up 256 slots, guess I can't go--" That's ridiculous and you're an idiot if you think that.



We aren't the ones staring at black screens, we're the ones out having fun...
C C P Alliance
#10 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:22
Fix Lag wrote:
Jumping from system to system alongside two hundred other people still lags out, even on a reinforced node.

Please analyze why it takes so long for people to jump from system to system and fix it, TIA.

TL;DR Taking three minutes to jump sucks because by then the fight's already over.


Yep, there's some terribly expensive stuff going on at that event, and we do know what it is. There's even a plan for how to fix it. It requires changing some very touchy, fundamental bits, which means it won't come quickly, but it's a known thing.
CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Goonswarm Federation
#11 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:23  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Morganta wrote:
no lag here
get better internets and pooter

How to fix the server-side issues: upgrade client-side.

Flawless victory.
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Goonswarm Federation
#12 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:27
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yep, there's some terribly expensive stuff going on at that event, and we do know what it is. There's even a plan for how to fix it. It requires changing some very touchy, fundamental bits, which means it won't come quickly, but it's a known thing.

Just how much does the idea of moving the processing of each client (ship, damage output, missiles etc) to a pr user model instead of a pr solar system model make you wail in panic?

(I'm assuming a lot due to sync issues etc)
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
#13 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:33
Fix Lag wrote:
Jumping from system to system alongside two hundred other people still lags out, even on a reinforced node.

Please analyze why it takes so long for people to jump from system to system and fix it, TIA.

TL;DR Taking three minutes to jump sucks because by then the fight's already over.

If your 200 man fleet is getting fights that last less than 3 minutes, then they are not fights, they are ganks.
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
#14 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:36
Karn Dulake wrote:
Blobbing demands punishment and you are getting it.

This is why highsec is for the win

CCP are well aware of this and have devoted coders trying to ease this but thanks for telling everyone.

What you are doing is not PVP




TLDR; Die in a fire

Your tears and butthurt are what sustain us
Goonswarm Federation
#15 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:36
Jack Dant wrote:
If your 200 man fleet is getting fights that last less than 3 minutes, then they are not fights, they are ganks.

This distinction is fascinating. Tell us more.
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
C C P Alliance
#16 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:37
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yep, there's some terribly expensive stuff going on at that event, and we do know what it is. There's even a plan for how to fix it. It requires changing some very touchy, fundamental bits, which means it won't come quickly, but it's a known thing.

Just how much does the idea of moving the processing of each client (ship, damage output, missiles etc) to a pr user model instead of a pr solar system model make you wail in panic?

(I'm assuming a lot due to sync issues etc)


It's something I keep in the back of my head 'cause it's the ideal way to scale this thing called Eve. For instance, the proper fix for jumps being crazy expensive is to move the processing that's going on during that away from the location binding. That's what I'm hoping to do, ya know, some day.

There's different amounts of feasibility for different aspects, however. For instance, moving the physics simulation of each individual ship to a per user computation unit calls into question how collisions are resolved, since it would be two independent simulations agreeing on exactly the same event. I doubt that would be an easier problem to solve than just having a unit of space be the computational unit for physics.

Damage application and such rides the middle ground. I could see it being possible to split that up such that each unit is responsible for the simulation of its things and it passes messages about to get things done. The communication overhead of that would need tight analysis as would the exposed interfaces. For instance, in order to display the health status of all of your targets and everyone in your watch list at the same time you'd now need to be querying possibly 20 computation units instead of one. You might still come up positive in the tradeoff, but it's not clear.
CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#17 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:39
200 man fleet fight that lasts under 3 minutes? 0.o

That's hardly worth lacing up your boots.

May as well split into 2 100 man fleets and have a tourney.
I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
#18 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:53
Pinaculus wrote:
200 man fleet fight that lasts under 3 minutes? 0.o

That's hardly worth lacing up your boots.

May as well split into 2 100 man fleets and have a tourney.


In a 'ideal' EvE Universe with absolutly 0 lag (server + client), a fight of that size would ended in a very few minutes. Logistics ships wouldn't have any role to fill.

Imagine the DPS of 100 BS in a 0 lag world... would be crazy. 150 ships destroyed in few minutes Twisted
Amarr Empire
#19 Posted: 2011.12.12 16:57
CCP Veritas wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yep, there's some terribly expensive stuff going on at that event, and we do know what it is. There's even a plan for how to fix it. It requires changing some very touchy, fundamental bits, which means it won't come quickly, but it's a known thing.

Just how much does the idea of moving the processing of each client (ship, damage output, missiles etc) to a pr user model instead of a pr solar system model make you wail in panic?

(I'm assuming a lot due to sync issues etc)


It's something I keep in the back of my head 'cause it's the ideal way to scale this thing called Eve. For instance, the proper fix for jumps being crazy expensive is to move the processing that's going on during that away from the location binding. That's what I'm hoping to do, ya know, some day.

There's different amounts of feasibility for different aspects, however. For instance, moving the physics simulation of each individual ship to a per user computation unit calls into question how collisions are resolved, since it would be two independent simulations agreeing on exactly the same event. I doubt that would be an easier problem to solve than just having a unit of space be the computational unit for physics.

Damage application and such rides the middle ground. I could see it being possible to split that up such that each unit is responsible for the simulation of its things and it passes messages about to get things done. The communication overhead of that would need tight analysis as would the exposed interfaces. For instance, in order to display the health status of all of your targets and everyone in your watch list at the same time you'd now need to be querying possibly 20 computation units instead of one. You might still come up positive in the tradeoff, but it's not clear.


Give Iracing a call. They might be able to guide you on this. By the way they due all the "simulation" client side. Also they are a smaller outfit than CCP. If someone lags they just blink. Really annoying in a pack of cars bumper to bumper, but it doesn't disrupt the whole node for one person to "catch up".
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Goonswarm Federation
#20 Posted: 2011.12.12 17:20
Not sure if iracing is all that applicable, since I'm asuming the physics tick is still done for all cars on the same thread, or at least with a much higher granularity than EVE's 1 second. The lag is mostly between server and client, where the server is master.

Actually, the main problems I kept thinking of was first of all syncronization between players, and resource usage/context switching. I've no idea how much memory one user would use if one user = one process, but I can only assume it'd be a lot more than today's structure. I also have no idea how many context switches this would entail pr second, or how much that would waste percentage-wise. It's at this point that I began thinking maybe lump, say, 50 players together in one thread, and spread them around on servers that way, but I'm thinking that might be premature optimization, and doesn't solve the problem of syncronization. Having said that, if it's all structured well, hardware-wise as well as software-wise, I'm hoping that it would allow the servers more than enough spare CPU time to be able to keep each other reasonably synchronized.

As long as the synchronization issues are handled properly, I think you'd end up with it all being a net gain. I kind of wish I could actually test this. Oh well, I'd have to actually not suck at programming first, I suppose.
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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