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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Amarr Empire
#1081 - 2015-03-04 06:28:32 UTC
Proton Stars wrote:
I thought the whole point was to boost smaller entities who may struggle to do just this for 4 hours, 365days a year!


No, the point is to boost smaller entities who can't field thousands of structure bashing ships on-demand, 24/7/365, along with associated supercap dominance. "Smaller" doesn't mean one-man alliances who want their name on a system, it means 50 or 100 man groups which, if actually actively living in a region of nullsec, should have absolutely no problem managing to defensive E-link their structures across a few systems on a daily basis.

More importantly, it's theoretically designed so that the 50 or 100 man group doing this has no particular incentive to join a large blue coalition nor does the large blue coalition have any reasonable chance of forcing this group out of their space permanently unless they actually plan to move there.

As for the cases where CFC will just occasionally steamroll the map and reset sov everywhere, well... yeah. They'll do that, it'll last 3 days, then they'll get bored and go back to their highsec incursion alts or freighter gankers or afktars ratting anoms close to their home systems and the people actually LIVING in those other places will just come back and re-establish sov for the remaining 362 days that year. Some people like to call that content.
#1082 - 2015-03-04 06:29:20 UTC
Will this help to populate the vast regions of the south where the true sec is horrific and the distance between stations too far to be bridged? Proberbly not.

Will it help to busy up the drone regions? Proberbly not.

Will it make cloud ring worth owning? No but vega and evoke will Proberbly try anyways...

So not really expanding on 0.0 are we..
#1083 - 2015-03-04 06:32:53 UTC
A note about API notifications. With Neocom (iPhone) plugged into calendar, events such as timers are plotted on my phone's calendar automatically.

This would be great for something like a station 'tosis timer, but the delay on API calls gets in the way of this being viable. Is it possible to make 'tosis timers send a burst of that API endpoint?
Goonswarm Federation
#1084 - 2015-03-04 06:34:08 UTC
Remember. This isn't a "fix null sec forever and for always" expansion. This is a "sovereignty mechancis overhaul" expansion.
Amarr Empire
#1085 - 2015-03-04 06:39:55 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Having the luxury of a local channel tell you who is in system is very risky indeed. Its so hard to live in nullsec.

We have all sorts of risks in wspace. We deal with those risks and still get our rewards. You want more safety in nullsec? Maybe CCP should just extend your local channel to constellation wide so you can see reds farther out.

It seems my point flew entirely over your head.
I'm not asking for more safety. I'm asking for more reward. I'm asking for sov to be worth something. If you want people to accept risks, then you have to give them a good reason to do so, otherwise they'll go elsewhere or quit the game entirely.

You also have mechanics in place that mitigate the risks. Your PVE is optimally done in fleets, whereas in nullsec it's optimally done solo. Your PVE is optimally done with fits that closer approximate PVP fits, whereas in nullsec this will seriously hurt your already meager income. The amount of firepower that an attacking force can bring into your system is limited by your wormhole connections to other systems, and you can change these connections at will. People who want to assault your properly defended infrastructure fight an uphill battle.

Literally the only advantage you don't have is local.
RvB - RED Federation
#1086 - 2015-03-04 06:42:02 UTC
Yugo 60 wrote:
[
Problem: Interceptors
Having "uncatchable" fleets of interceptors troll reinforcing everything in the region (or two) during one evening every single time that some structure is out of RF just for the heck of it (and to make sov holders form up for def all the time) is not what I would call a good mechanics. CHANGE INTERCEPTORS to make them catchable or give them inability of RFing.


I raise you the sniping battleship, able to swat away any foolish interceptor that turn a capture mod on since they can't warp away. The idea that inties would suddenly become ridiculous with this change seems to gloss over the fact that you cant warp for 2 min and need to stay there for 10+ min with the module active and since the most I've been able to get an interceptor to lock is ~130 km (all sebos+rigs with no prop) so any small gang of sniping ships would slaughter the paper thin ships when they try to capture.
#1087 - 2015-03-04 06:42:34 UTC
Amarr Empire
#1088 - 2015-03-04 06:44:28 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Primary This Rifter wrote:
And yet you fail to address the reasons why someone might want to hold that sov in the first place.


I'm asking because I don't know. Why do alliances hold the space that they do today? The changes don't specifically change the motivations for holding the space, so why would you ask this question now?


The biggest reason probably comes down to "we still want to be on top if this game ever becomes fun again".
Goonswarm Federation
#1089 - 2015-03-04 06:47:07 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Primary This Rifter wrote:
And yet you fail to address the reasons why someone might want to hold that sov in the first place.


I'm asking because I don't know. Why do alliances hold the space that they do today? The changes don't specifically change the motivations for holding the space, so why would you ask this question now?


The biggest reason probably comes down to "we still want to be on top if this game ever becomes fun again".


Quoting myself:


"Remember. This isn't a "fix null sec forever and for always" expansion. This is a "sovereignty mechancis overhaul" expansion."
Amarr Empire
#1090 - 2015-03-04 06:47:27 UTC
so for your example maps all of your examples were taken from the only NRDS space in the entire game. I'm wondering why you chose that for your example? It would seem that under the current mechanics provi is some of the most active small and medium gang null sec space in game and I would guess also some of the most used space. If anything it should be used as an example of what is working and not what needs to be changed.

As far as the changes themselves I won't say that they are bad or not an improvement it just doesn't seem to change all that much to me. I mean from your stated goal I fail to see how this makes huge strides towards any kind of major change.

It also bugs me that you focused on sov changing mechanics as if that was where null needed work when I do not feel that was what needed the most attention. Sov changes should be something rare and not a huge part of the day to day life in null. You focused on sov changing mechanics in null and are going to somehow claim that will change the day to day living in null? It's not that I am unhappy with the changes in that I think they will negatively impact the game as I don't. It's that I am unhappy with the changes because you spent time developing this when you could have been developing something useful.

If you want null to be active with all kinds of players and be active and used then you need to change how sov holders make their isk from the space that they own. You also would want to have them make isk off of neuts and give them the tools to manage NRDS effectively as having huge sections of blue space with locked down borders does not encourage fights or make them more likely to happen but having tons of unknowns and neuts flying around does.

In real life we say things like follow the money because money trails tell you a lot about motivating factors. If you want to control how space is used and how it is held and why it is held you need to change the motivating factors. What you have done here is change the mechanics on how to own space which is far less effective than changing the mechanics of why you own space.

These changes largely seem like a huge waste of dev time. I can't believe you are spending half of a year on this turd. I'm hoping some one there at CCP gets a clue about motivating factors and human interactions. I am so let down by this blog that I don't think that I'll feel compelled to watch **** and / or fap for at least a day or two.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

DARKNESS.
#1091 - 2015-03-04 06:49:12 UTC
Dear CCP,

I have read the Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two and it was actually very interesting. I think it will encourage more fight and hopefully more content. I might have some problem with the "Prime Time" system. Since it is only 4 hrs windows for every day and it is based on the alliance prime time. So it is only logical that every alliance pick the 4 hrs window based on their member prime time also. This is a very good concept, but this will encourage alliance to only recruit corp that match their Prime Time. I thought that EvE is diverse, multi cultural and ethnic. This Prime Time system seems to against that notion. I don’t like to think that there will be a case where a corp is deemed not contributing enough to the alliance just because most of the member is in different time zone. And to be honest from my point of view this is a bit racist, because the logical implication of the system not the idea behind the system.

My suggestion is that the Prime Time is where the entire defense bonus it at 100% and when it is not their Prime Time the bonus is multiplied let say 500% or more. I know it is probably not the best solution it. But if is there any solution that still encourages alliance to recruit corp from different time zone, culture and ethnic I am very happy.

Thanks.
Singularity Syndicate
#1092 - 2015-03-04 06:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Exe Om
Questions:

- What happens if a pilot is not in an alliance and still go and activate the Entosis link on a structure in an empty system?

- Will there be any roles given to the pilot who actually uses the Enthosis Link, so he can go capture on behalf of the alliance? If not, how can an Alliance leader controls who to attack and who not to when every member goes crazy attacking everyone. Standings and politics get hit. New type of awoxers rise.

- Assuming most of the structure shooting is out, what happens to POCO's? Will the new system be implemented on their ownership switching also?

- Jump Bridges need more explanation for their status during the change of hands of the solar system.

- In stations, when having a research/manufacturing job(or in POS'es manufacturing a capital) the station changes hands, and new owner set crazy tax on indy works, what happens to the active jobs?

Thanks,


Good or bad, change is always good on the long run.

It is not enough that I succeed, all other must fail

Northern Coalition.
#1093 - 2015-03-04 06:56:27 UTC
So all for all multi tz alliances we now see sov decided in one tz's 4 hour window.

How clever is that?
#1094 - 2015-03-04 06:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
You are making holding space into even more of a chore than it already is. Why would I continue to hold space? Why wouldn't I just move all my stuff into Serpentis Prime and grief any poor fools who want to try to own space to the point where they quit?

My only option is to join a group so large and well-organized that I don't have to worry about multiple objectives spread across a number of constellations.

Forget having a small corp with thirty active pilots in each timezone and trying to hold a home by having loose friendships with some of your neighbors to help out if 100-200 hostiles show up. The occasional alarm clock op is way preferable to "max dudes logged in during prime time every night until the server shuts down. Scouts in every system. Oh, and you bitches better be ratting constantly and mining too! But we'll all use Vexors so it doesn't matter if we get hotdropped by the permanent AFK cloaky."

Forget having to commit meaningful resources to take space from someone. It was bad enough that we could grind structures with stealth bombers. Now we can do it with other cheap ships and evade and harass until the defender just get sick of it and leaves.

This version of Eve will not be fun.
Step 1: AFK cloak until system index goes down.
Step 2: blue ball harassment with cheap fleets until your opponent stops logging in. No good fights because there is nothing the attacker must commit or risk. The defender just has to screw up once or lose morale very briefly and he's done.
Step 3: Everything everyone invested in their Eve home goes poof. All those upgrades gone. If you are away for the weekend, everything in your station is lost.
Step 4: gloat over the charred wasteland and wonder why there used to be 50k people online and now there are 15-20k.

This gets worse once you listen to the people who live in HS, LS, and NPC null and make the stations destructible. The people who love this idea are the people who don't give a **** about owning space or having a 0.0 home.

What are Supercapitals and capitals good for now? Defending the money moons, which will be the only thing worth owning once everything is slashed and burned. But good luck getting started with that, because you won't have the security to build your own Supercapitals (unless you are already capable of doing it).

End result:
1. Buffs to largest, best-organized entities
2. Buffs to nomadic super capital rich groups
3. Buffs to NPC 0.0 and their afk cloaky hotdrop tactics
4. No real incentive to build anything long term or meaningful in 0.0
5. Anyone with a family or life either has 10000 friends or leaves 0.0
6. 0.0 space becomes even more empty and less interesting

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Goonswarm Federation
#1095 - 2015-03-04 07:00:37 UTC
Exe Om wrote:
Questions:

- What happens if a pilot is not in an alliance and still go and activate the Entosis link on a structure in an empty system?

- Will there be any roles given to the pilot who actually uses the Enthosis Link, so he can go capture on behalf of the alliance? If not, how can an Alliance leader controls who to attack and who not to when every member goes crazy attacking everyone. Standings and politics get hit. New type of awoxers rise.

- Assuming most of the structure shooting is out, what happens to POCO's? Will the new system be implemented on their ownership switching also?

- Jump Bridges need more explanation for their status during the change of hands of the solar system.

- In stations, when having a research/manufacturing job(or in POS'es manufacturing a capital) the station changes hands, and new owner set crazy tax on indy works, what happens to the active jobs?

Thanks,


Good or bad, change is always good on the long run.


1. Great question

2. Sounds fun!

3. POCOs and POSes are still structure grinds as they are not SOV structures

4. JBs are still tied to SOV level (Strategic?) and once the I-Hub explodes, JBs using that level go inert I would think.

5. During the freeport stage, would defenders not simply cancel all their jobs if they thought there was a chance they could lose?
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1096 - 2015-03-04 07:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Having the luxury of a local channel tell you who is in system is very risky indeed. Its so hard to live in nullsec.

We have all sorts of risks in wspace. We deal with those risks and still get our rewards. You want more safety in nullsec? Maybe CCP should just extend your local channel to constellation wide so you can see reds farther out.


WH space has greater reward for your greater risk. Far greater than that of the typically null player, which right now is in line with a high sec incursion runner.

Local chat is not as great of a safety net as you all like to pretend it is. Last I checked local didn't tell you who was several jumps over in a BLOPs nor if that player has a cyno equip. But WH space also doesn't have to fear getting hot dropped as they do not typically have that many solo activities. Making their only true threat a sizable gang crashing their party.

That aside these changes now allow that cloaky camper to now also possibly be wielding a module that can cripple your system if you are not on constant guard all on his own. This is far too much power for a single player to wield against the sovereignty of hundreds.
And may I add, please get the idea that local is going anywhere out of your heads. You're literally ~12 years too late for that complaint. GET OVER IT! It's seriously like nails on a chalkboard when that is used for a reason supporting an imbalanced activity with no reasonable counter.


If CCP wants to release anything remotely close to this they have a few issues they need to address:
1) Ship hull restrictions for this new module (BC/BS/cap only) something that is actually vulnerable to attack and not likely to just waltz into your space on a whim

2) Make player want to spread out. Alliance may want more sov to save on pos fuel, but convince their player base to go rat/mine in that 0.0 - -0.5 system next to an populated npc system. RISK vs REWARD
---In other words rework true sec before you rework sov mechanics, or put them in the same patch at the very least.

3) Putting in place a reasonable counter to cloak mechanics that requires both parties to pay attention and interact. EX: pos mod pulse that disables cloak for x time with y cd. Or something along those lines... There are far better ideas I'm sure that both parties can agree to.

4) Give some actual advantages to holding sov, give the player a reason to fight. Possibly give indices more of a purpose:
-lower all structure HP to start, military now gives a small passive omni resist bonus to all structures/ships in system giving structures slightly more EHP at lvl 5 than we currently see.
-industry now increases copy/build job speeds / refine rates done in system
Those are just examples but you see those bonuses have meaning at the player level, not just alliance.
Goonswarm Federation
#1097 - 2015-03-04 07:02:48 UTC
STUMZ wrote:
So all for all multi tz alliances we now see sov decided in one tz's 4 hour window.

How clever is that?


This is the one part of this system that I absolutely expect to change. My suggestion is here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5547628#post5547628
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#1098 - 2015-03-04 07:04:54 UTC
I don't agree with all of the aforementioned changes although I think the overall concept of small gang and or smaller fleet sov warfare is good although the inidcies being plagued by afk cloaky red campers is ****. As far the other changes I need to delve into the murky waters once more and see how I feel about them.
Villore Accords
#1099 - 2015-03-04 07:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Callduron
The principle effect of this is to make null space more dangerous and promote more conflict. As written it seems certain to do that.

We've heard a lot from sov players but the people most buffed by this are the NPC null residents: MOA, Tec-nology etc who live to **** with the nearby sov holders. There will be constant harassment and small roaming gangs of frigates or dessies will provoke home defence fleets which can be dropped on or otherwise engaged.

I've always loved home defence fleets in null and I'm really looking forward to this aspect. Lots of small crises popping up are great for a minor FC like myself and many players enjoy the smaller fleets.

Regarding the issue of risk v reward nullsec is meant to be dangerous and by making it more dangerous the value of operating in nullsec successfully goes up for some activities. For instance arkonor is worth less than veldspar because very large amounts of it are mined in nullsec pushing the price down. If less people mine in nullsec because it has become more dangerous then the ore will be worth more.

Also reward isn't strictly necessary to create an exciting sov game. Why would hostiles tear down your ****? Because they can, that's all the reason needed.

Regarding the issue of the timer people will use watchlists, killboards and other information sources to analyse enemy activity and then target the weakest time. It would be horrible defending space that could easily be put into reinforcement or hubs destroyed at a time of the attacker's choosing. Alliance members outside the main vulnerability time remain useful for attacking other people's space, which is likely to generate non-aggression treaties and other deals.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Brothers of Tangra
#1100 - 2015-03-04 07:06:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Sideous
Hello CCP,


So first I want to say thank you for all your hard work & dedication. I really like new release cadence , clear roadmap & bold changes. I am and the community should be really grateful for Seagull's amazing leadership. My first impressions of the sov system are favorable. I see where you want to go and what motivated you to create this system. I think it will create a chance for a very dynamic and entertaining experience. It is also clear this system will be flexible enough to make iteration easy. I do however have some questions , feedback & advice. So I will start with some initial questions.


Arrow I feel like the 4 hour window is to short. (I would recommend 6)

Arrow Will sov cost reduce or increase with Indices? ( If not you are missing the boat )

Arrow Besides the name on the map why would anyone choose to move to nullsec? ( Incursions , level 5's already offer more isk per hour than nullsec. )

Arrow How does all the Risk of Living in Nullsec compare to the rewards of other safer areas in Eve?

Arrow Supercapital Role ?

Arrow Where do the Command Nodes spawn for someone that just controls a single system or 2?

ArrowThe scoring system was a little vague on command nodes. Is it win by 10/win by 1 over 10?

ArrowCan a ship cloak or have a cloak fit with a Entosis fit? ( I hope not)

ArrowHow many M3 is the Entosis module? (hopefully very large so AFK Cloakers can't just refit one.

ArrowAFK Cloaking?


Now let me play game designer if I may. I would use this system along with the Phoebe jump changes. With a few changes and additions. Entosis cycle would be affected by TIDI and would not be able to be activated by a ship in Bastion , Triage or Siege. Sov cost would have a base median value and indices would gain negative values. Meaning @ 0 use they would slowly dip towards negative indices values. The lower the negative value of indices the more expensive the sov bill. The higher the value of positive indices the cheaper the sov bill. Furthermore sovereignty owned by an alliance not connected to the main body of sov would have a premium charge ( a fixed % increase over base sov cost ).

Next I would seek to create incentives for people to reside in nullsec. One of the biggest is the ability to be self sustaining via local resources. I would then give the orca , jump freighter , bowhead & rorqual the same fatigue as other ships. I would reduce the JF range of that to all other ships. Doing this would make nullsec so much healthier. A real sense of community when the welfare & supply of the alliance is shared by all. Instead of what we currently have " A few guys and some cynos whisking off to Jita to procure everything players need" When you do this you end up with more players in space doing things to supply the alliance and its members with all the goods and materials they need to function.

Furthermore this makes attrition style warfare real. It also adds to the dynamics of living in nullsec. It answers the question of what do "off prime time players do"? Raiding and interfering with groups logistical and production efforts now has real and meaningful ramifications. Defending against those who would seek to raid also has important value. No longer are PVP'rs the end all be all of alliance members. In a nullsec where the chord to easy supply ( Jita) is severed productionist , logisticians , miners now have a important role in nullsec which leads to a more inclusive dynamic atmosphere in alliance culture.

It's means empire bordering nullsec regions now have new and unique value that due to the Jump Freighter became unimportant years ago. Conversely deeper remote regions with great riches have unique value due to higher abundance of resources. This all adds to reasons for people in space doing things. Reasons for conquest reasons for defense.

WIth attrition style warfare , Jump Fatigue & Sov 3.0 think about all the dynamics of conquest and defense. Questions like:

Arrow Where is my beachhead?
Arrow What's the geography around my beachhead?
Arrow What is the makeup of my target and what is their primetime?
Arrow Who are their friends? What force do they have at their disposal?
ArrowWhat kind of infrastructure do they have in place? ( stations , pos , jb's , beacons , ihub upgrades )
Arrow What kind of stockpiles & provisions do they have?
Arrow What is there logistical and production capabilities? ( can they sustain a siege via local production )
Arrow What are my stockpiles and provisions?
Arrow What capacity to I have to sustain siege?

These are some of the things you would have to consider. Once you do you can make a plan with multiple ways to approach conquest. One of my favorite scenarios is facing a stronger opponent. A opponent dug in with lots of infrastructure. The thought of a slow burn campaign with interdiction and denial being the initial phase. Reducing logistical and production capabilities of the mark while whittling down reserve stockpiles via combat. Pushing the mark into a situation slowly and carefully where the giant is now at the disadvantage. Taking their resources and using them to augment your production capabilities truly a double edged sword. A very exciting and dynamic environment.

@CCP an word of caution. I see CCP using metrics with a degree of ambiguity to re enforce a pre-conceived notion. This is called confirmation bias. A example of this was the recent blog over the Ishtar nerf. There was a graph showing all the ships and their usage and damage. In this graph it showed battleships in a great place. Not to overpowered but able to project decent damage their hull size and investment. In reality however this could not be further from truth. So please rethink some of these metrics with graphs because always the devil is in the details.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

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