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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-10-16 17:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Logibro
Hey everyone! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will cover some of the ship balance tweaks we are currently planning so we can start gathering your feedback.

Many of these changes were sparked by discussion with the community, and I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to pitch your ideas and feedback to us on the forums, reddit, blogs, podcasts and at real life events.
Special thanks to community member Suitonia who produces tons of great content on his blog and on youtube. Quite a few of the balance changes in this pass were inspired by his feedback.

The changes in this thread are primarily focused on T1 frigates and faction ships of all sizes (with one HAC buff thrown in). We're really interested in hearing what you think.

Breacher:
The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement.
  • -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s

  • Tormentor:
    Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones.
  • +10m3 Dronebay

  • Rifter and Slasher:
    Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs.
  • Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG
  • Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG

  • Tristan:
    Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is.
    :Edit: After feedback and discussion in this thread, we're also removing some structure HP from the Tristan

  • -10 m/s
  • -100 Hull

  • Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level

  • Firetail and Hookbill:
    We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types.
  • Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level
  • Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp

  • Navy Osprey:
    The Navy Osprey is well below the power curve and overshadowed by other ships overlapping its role. The goal of these changes are to refocus the ship as a flexible destroyer of small ships worthy of a favoured role in the Caldari Navy's auxiliary forces.
    All in all, these changes leave the Navy Osprey with a moderate damage increase (6.75 effective launchers instead of 6, and the added drones) with extra benefits when using non-kinetic damage types. The second utility high also opens up new options for energy warfare.

  • -1 Launcher (second utility high)
  • Change the damage bonus to 25% Kinetic, 20% EM/Therm/Exp
  • +100 pwg
  • +15 dronebay and bandwidth

  • Sacrilege:
    Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs, while continuing to bring the ship closer in line with Amarrian (and Khanid) trends in drone use.
  • +50m3 dronebay

  • Worm and Gila:
    Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes.
  • Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU
  • Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU

  • Orthrus:
    Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further.
  • Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level

  • Barghest:
    The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high.
  • -1 Launcher (second utility high)
  • Change damage bonus to 10% per level

  • As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates.

    We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think!

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Snuffed Out
    #2 - 2015-10-16 17:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Madbuster73
    First, I am excited!

    RIP Orthrus, Gila & Worm... You were too OP anyway.

    But overall good changes, I agree with all of them.
    Pandemic Legion
    #3 - 2015-10-16 17:07:02 UTC
    Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though.
    #4 - 2015-10-16 17:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
    What about Phantasm ????????????
    Orthrus have to much cap , consider reducing it a bit.
    Rattle ?
    Perfect ship for newbies thanks to big hull bonuses - powerfull PVP fleet ship when you have triage support - so kind of balanced because of this.
    Pandemic Legion
    #5 - 2015-10-16 17:11:42 UTC
    CCP STAHP PLS!!!!!!!!!!!111!1!!111!111
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #6 - 2015-10-16 17:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari

    • Thanks for listening to the suggestions regarding the damage specific bonuses for the Hookbill and Navy Osprey. I hope some of those types of changes can make it to the other damage-bonused missile ships, so we have more situations where we have to decide whether it's worth it to swap missile ammo to try to take advantage of resist holes.

    • Very happy for the buff to the Rifter to make it more competitive. It's very difficult to fit currently and to use the utility highslot. Because the bonuses are geared towards Artillery to use the Falloff bonus, that's what I'd want to use. Even with the PG buff, it still looks very difficult to fit 280mm Howitzers on the Rifter without a lot of fitting mods. Even dropping to 250mm it's still quite tight. Hoping that the Artillery modules themselves will be getting a balance pass to help with this. For example, this will JUST fit with max skills - would probably put a probe launcher offline in the utility slot:

    • [Rifter, Rifter - Pure Arty]
      Internal Force Field Array I
      Gyrostabilizer II
      Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

      5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
      Warp Disruptor II
      Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200

      250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
      250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
      250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
      [empty high slot]

      Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
      Small Ancillary Current Router I
      Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


    • Tristan nerf is fine - it's a very flexible frigate and shouldn't be able to do everything.

    • For the Punisher, while Amarr don't have a direct missile progression path, there are a lot of T1 ships that use missiles as their secondary weapon - especially the EWAR type Arbitrator, Dragoon, Prophecy, and Armageddon.

    • Gila and Worm nerfs are needed, no question. The change will probably break a lot of PVE setups for the Gila however, especially in W-Space. Will probably have to try on the test server to see how much of a difference it makes.

    • Orthrus nerf is reasonable, and I think incremental is the way to go considering these are Pirate Faction ships.

    #7 - 2015-10-16 17:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
    Destoya wrote:
    Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though.


    hardly that big, rattlesnake should lose a slot though especially a high and launcher too tone down the dps, i still think they should be reverted too 5 drones then you could sort out the strange bonuses they have.
    orthrus needs more nerfs surely..

    punisher getting 1 more slot than other ships is odd, surely there is a better solution like switching a high too the low instead and just buff the cap regen instead of giving it the lame laser cap bonus

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Pandemic Horde
    #8 - 2015-10-16 17:21:55 UTC
    Gila definitely needed to be toned down a bit.
    Pandemic Legion
    #9 - 2015-10-16 17:22:39 UTC
    Love the boosts to the navy osprey!
    Goonswarm Federation
    #10 - 2015-10-16 17:22:50 UTC
    Youre still missing out on giving the Nestor an 8th Highslot :(
    #11 - 2015-10-16 17:23:06 UTC
    so punisher is gonna be now better in pvp . but as pve boat it will chew most 1/10 2/10 sites
    Northern Coalition.
    #12 - 2015-10-16 17:23:07 UTC
    That's a lot of nice stuff.

    Thanks Fozzie.
    WAFFLES.
    #13 - 2015-10-16 17:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




  • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.
    An Alliance Has No Name
    #14 - 2015-10-16 17:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Insidious
    nothing wrong with having a slightly over powering ship like the orthrus :*(
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #15 - 2015-10-16 17:29:23 UTC
    /me looks at punisher changes and facepalms

    So Much Space

    Shadow Cartel
    #16 - 2015-10-16 17:30:12 UTC
    I'm not into it.

    tormentor doesn't need any buff, it's one of the best.

    rifter is still unusable trash due to bad slots and bad weapons. if you're going to let me fit an artillery brawler, you should give the tracking bonus back. I don't really want to kite with it since it doesn't have the warp disruptor cap bonus.

    tristan does need nerf, but I'd prefer it to be specifically targeted at kiting tristans. if it were me I'd be setting different drone control ranges for different classes or something. getting 50-60km range for free on a frig is crazy.

    punisher I'm not sure about, its fittings will probably still be awful. less turrets is generally better than more. all the good frigates get a load of free drones bumping up their dps by 20-40.

    firetail doesn't need anything while it can still abuse double web easymode scram kite.

    hookbill is still a slow piece of **** that suffers from it being basically impossible to efficiently invest slots into shield tanking on frigs other than for extenders and ancils. are you guys really ok with people armor tanking a ship with 5 mids 2 lows?

    I'm glad you're looking at overpowered gurista and mordu ships, but those nerfs don't look like they're enough. and I don't see an entry for the garmur, what gives?
    Central Omni Galactic Group
    #17 - 2015-10-16 17:31:20 UTC
    My poor ratting Gila...

    Thank you Fozzie for all the great info.

    "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

    #NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

    #18 - 2015-10-16 17:33:06 UTC
    Oh my god the Barghest CCP.

    Dual heavy neuts on a fast battleship that's already able to kite very well Shocked

    That thing is going to be insane!
    Shadow Cartel
    #19 - 2015-10-16 17:33:25 UTC
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




  • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.



    2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler.
    Thermodynamics
    #20 - 2015-10-16 17:33:56 UTC
    YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ONE!!!!11!

    I wear my goggles at night.

    Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

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