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New dev blog: Remember the old new Neocom?

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Synthetic Existence
#21 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:33  |  Edited by: Tipsy
I like the nice clean look - and I'm glad CCP is working on this. I look forward to the total overhaul of the EVE UI and this is a positive start.

A few thoughts. This shot shows the darkened menu area extending to the bottom of the screen, way below the last menu item. It also shows quite a lot of darkened-area padding to the right of the menu text. I for one want as much of the background space scene, windows etc. fully visible and if the space isn't actively being used by the menus, I'd prefer it wasn't darkened and making it harder to see. This is a particular problem for people playing at lowish screen resolutions because of the screen space they'll take up.

I'd also suggest building in a 'minimise all' button, excluding the overview, drones and fleet (and perhaps making this customisable). A keyboard shortcut which people have to go delving into the ESC-menu for to find isn't that user friendly. The 'show desktop' button was always the first thing I put in my shortcuts bar on a Windows install, and EVE could benefit from the same.

By the way, adding icons to all menu items (inc. right-click menus) like the ones you've put on the Neocom menus would make navigating through the EVE UI a lot easier, particularly for new players.
#22 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:41
It sounds all good with one exception. That being:
Quote:
We’ve also changed the toggle-close window behavior of the Neocom buttons to toggle-minimize.


This sounds like a downgrade in functionality for me personally. I almost never minimize those windows, while on the other hand I open and close neocom windows all the time. I guess I can work around it by binding shortcuts to both close and minimize functions and just use those, but I still wish you wouldn't change it from how it functions today. Just a personal preference though.
Happy Cartel
#23 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:45
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
I wanted the whole thing to be diagonal but then again I don't get to work on the UI. Sad


Here you go...

http://i.imgur.com/SEKyl.jpg


Fuggin' epic!
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
#24 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:48
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
It sounds all good with one exception. That being:
Quote:
We’ve also changed the toggle-close window behavior of the Neocom buttons to toggle-minimize.


This sounds like a downgrade in functionality for me personally. I almost never minimize those windows, while on the other hand I open and close neocom windows all the time. I guess I can work around it by binding shortcuts to both close and minimize functions and just use those, but I still wish you wouldn't change it from how it functions today. Just a personal preference though.



I absolutely agree on this front. By all means add functionality, but please don't change it. I prefer my windows closed as opposed to minimised and in a list.

That being said; the new Neocom looks great. I'm very glad you decided to move away from horizontal, considering how limited my horizontal screen space is compared to vertical screen space. It's good to see the client getting some functionality lovin' lately.

AND we get it this January. Very cool.

Argus
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
#25 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:48  |  Edited by: Argus Kell
ugh. double post.
#26 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:48
CCP Optimal wrote:
The Neocom now also takes care of hosting minimized windows, so the unreadable slab of buttons that formed at the bottom of your screen is gone forever.

Not sure about this part, if as it appears from reading the blog minimised windows now go to hide on the neocom there seems little point minimising them, for me a large part of the reason for doing so is NOT having to open the neocom to click back on a button. If this could become optional in a later release it'd be great, removing functionality (even it it doesn't look like it to you) is allways a bad thing.

Rixiu wrote:

Not a fan of the toggle-minimize behaviour. Prefer the toggle-close one we have now.

This should really be an option set for each window, do you want it to toggle open/closed or open/minimised as neither is ideal to apply to everything.


Other than that it sounds good, looks like it might finally be possible to shovel the 80% of stuff I never use on neocom off to the depths of the client and just have the 2 or 3 buttons I do use to hand, roll on sorting out the annoying glitches with window behaviour (esp stacked windows) nextBig smile
Pandemic Legion
#27 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:50
Imagine a world where we could open windows as new tabs...

A man can dream, can't he?
#28 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:51
:s
How much harder is it to put the Neocom on top/bottom/left/right?
Looking forward to the implementation though.

*****Also please make all windows bind-able to any other window*****
*****Also compare info-box-tools*****

Thanks in advance.
C C P Alliance
#29 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:52
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
It sounds all good with one exception. That being:
Quote:
We’ve also changed the toggle-close window behavior of the Neocom buttons to toggle-minimize.


This sounds like a downgrade in functionality for me personally. I almost never minimize those windows, while on the other hand I open and close neocom windows all the time. I guess I can work around it by binding shortcuts to both close and minimize functions and just use those, but I still wish you wouldn't change it from how it functions today. Just a personal preference though.


The argument here is that when you open up a window that is not already pinned to the Neocom, the toggle close functionality can become very annoying. If you for example want to keep an agent mission window open for the duration of a mission, you could quite easily close the window by accident with the toggle close functionality, but with toggle minimize you won't lose the window as easily through clumsy clicking. Also, for windows that are already pinned to the Neocom, you don't really care too much if the window is closed or minimized, as long as it pops in your face when you click the button. This also results in the nice side effect that windows generally take much less time to maximize than to open. As with all new functionality, this will of course take a little bit of getting used to.
#30 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:54
Looks awesome !


Tipsy wrote:
I'd also suggest building in a 'minimise all' button, excluding the overview, drones and fleet (and perhaps making this customisable). A keyboard shortcut which people have to go delving into the ESC-menu for to find isn't that user friendly. The 'show desktop' button was always the first thing I put in my shortcuts bar on a Windows install, and EVE could benefit from the same.

+1
C C P Alliance
#31 Posted: 2012.01.10 16:57
Tonglil wrote:
:s
How much harder is it to put the Neocom on top/bottom/left/right?
Looking forward to the implementation though.

*****Also please make all windows bind-able to any other window*****
*****Also compare info-box-tools*****

Thanks in advance.


As I said in the blog, doing top/bottom alignment is obviously possible, but it just takes time, and we decided that the benefit/time ratio was simply too low. According to the feedback from our last attempt, most people wanted to keep it vertical anyway.
#32 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:00
This looks very nice, much more modern and up to date. I'm also thrilled that the neocom will be more customizable.

Would it be possible to add a "break" so that I can have a visual cue between groups of icons?

Button Button Button | Button Button | Button Button Button

Very much like many customizable toolbars in standard desktop applications. That would be fantastic.
Void Alliance
#33 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:01
I don't like the new neocom on sisi.
It's very confusing.

Please make an option available to all players so we can switch between current one and the new one.
Straight
C C P Alliance
#34 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:04
TheLostPenguin wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
The Neocom now also takes care of hosting minimized windows, so the unreadable slab of buttons that formed at the bottom of your screen is gone forever.

Not sure about this part, if as it appears from reading the blog minimised windows now go to hide on the neocom there seems little point minimising them, for me a large part of the reason for doing so is NOT having to open the neocom to click back on a button. If this could become optional in a later release it'd be great, removing functionality (even it it doesn't look like it to you) is allways a bad thing.

Rixiu wrote:

Not a fan of the toggle-minimize behaviour. Prefer the toggle-close one we have now.

This should really be an option set for each window, do you want it to toggle open/closed or open/minimised as neither is ideal to apply to everything.


Other than that it sounds good, looks like it might finally be possible to shovel the 80% of stuff I never use on neocom off to the depths of the client and just have the 2 or 3 buttons I do use to hand, roll on sorting out the annoying glitches with window behaviour (esp stacked windows) nextBig smile


Removing functionality is very bad, unless you replace it with something better and that's what we're hoping to do with the new Neocom. If you still won't agree after having used it for a while, obviously we'll need to iterate.
Fatal Ascension
#35 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:06
Oh wow, I really like the way the new neocom looks, I just hope the menu access is fluid
THE KING OF EVE RADIO

ElQuirko is my son
#36 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:11
CCP Optimal wrote:

The argument here is that when you open up a window that is not already pinned to the Neocom, the toggle close functionality can become very annoying. If you for example want to keep an agent mission window open for the duration of a mission, you could quite easily close the window by accident with the toggle close functionality, but with toggle minimize you won't lose the window as easily through clumsy clicking. Also, for windows that are already pinned to the Neocom, you don't really care too much if the window is closed or minimized, as long as it pops in your face when you click the button. This also results in the nice side effect that windows generally take much less time to maximize than to open. As with all new functionality, this will of course take a little bit of getting used to.


I agree completely. I close windows all the time because I want my screen clear and then I want to see them again but I'll have to search for whatever I was searching all over again because the window's contents were reset on closing.

Your solution removes nothing useful (minimized windows are presumably not taking up any space anymore) but adds great funtionality. Well done.
.
#37 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:16
CCP Optimal wrote:
TheLostPenguin wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
The Neocom now also takes care of hosting minimized windows, so the unreadable slab of buttons that formed at the bottom of your screen is gone forever.

Not sure about this part, if as it appears from reading the blog minimised windows now go to hide on the neocom there seems little point minimising them, for me a large part of the reason for doing so is NOT having to open the neocom to click back on a button. If this could become optional in a later release it'd be great, removing functionality (even it it doesn't look like it to you) is allways a bad thing.

Rixiu wrote:

Not a fan of the toggle-minimize behaviour. Prefer the toggle-close one we have now.

This should really be an option set for each window, do you want it to toggle open/closed or open/minimised as neither is ideal to apply to everything.


Other than that it sounds good, looks like it might finally be possible to shovel the 80% of stuff I never use on neocom off to the depths of the client and just have the 2 or 3 buttons I do use to hand, roll on sorting out the annoying glitches with window behaviour (esp stacked windows) nextBig smile


Removing functionality is very bad, unless you replace it with something better and that's what we're hoping to do with the new Neocom. If you still won't agree after having used it for a while, obviously we'll need to iterate.

Devs have a long history of really really sucking at what counts as "better."

For me, the worst part about the old new neocom, and the horizontal alignment, was that you have 30 different windows that look like [?]. Like some dev is saying "I don't even know what the f*ck this window is!" Just like the ctrl-tab window became useless when it was switched to icons, you're making the minimized windows equally useless. Your design is bad and you should feel bad. You're admitting to "selling out" to "awesum". Remember how big a flop it was last time that happened?

This is totally premature. The EVE UI sucks noodles. A very small portion of it is in how you access it. How you access any particular window or tool in the game is a matter of memorizing where it is located. Now you're throwing away the millions of man-hours put into memorization, and you're making it harder for vets to tell rookies "oh, to access your fitting in space you need to hit the fitting button on the neocom, 3rd button down." All this does is turn a huge shithole of a UI into a swirling shithole of a UI. Sorry, but this sounds like change for the sake of change, where not only does nothing get better, it actually gets worse.
Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
#38 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:18
Any change to get (if there isn't one already) a button to get rid of / minimize all non essential windows, leaving only combat essential things visible?
Sky Syndicate
#39 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:27
I like the listed scope of the changes thus far. Let's hope that they work as advertised since they won't hit SISI.

But all in all, I think that these will be good, albeit requiring some relearning of the UI (which is not the end of the world regardless of what some others might claim).
#40 Posted: 2012.01.10 17:29
St Mio wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The more UI improvements we get, the better!

What this good man said!

This.

Also, I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of use of the beta feature feature. Making features optional initially is a really smart idea the old new neocom was supposed to usher in. Please reconsider using this type of roll-out for future feature/changes, especially for things that change how players interact with the game in a way they are used to.

Also, along the same lines keep in mind that having options is NEVER BAD. For example, why not make whether the buttons minimize or close windows an OPTION Big smile
Lead, Follow, or Get the #@$!@ Out of the Way.
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