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[News] BREAKING: Origin Invaded!

Author
#61 - 2016-10-12 01:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Status Update, Origin System as of YC118.10.12

Alexylva Paradox is pleased to announce that the Origin system's alert status has now been reduced to yellow-elevated and the system has been declared secure. The aggressors have left the system and a ceasefire is in effect until Thursday.

The system defense was a resounding success. Despite the loss of a few minor ALXVP orbitals our major infrastructure including all of our Citadels are intact and well and corporate assets are secure.

The citadel colonists have been stood down from evacuation stations and are returning to their daily lives.

Detailed information on the last few days of hostilities is available on any major public combat-tracking site, and will not be repeated in this summary.

ALXVP extend our heartfelt gratitude to our allies and friends:

404 Hole Not Found
Arataka Research Consortium
Bloody Heathens
Dark Skies Dojo
Ember Sands
Escalating Entropy
Feuerreich
Imperial Shipment
La Division Bleue
Overload This
Phoenix Naval Systems
Spatial Instability
The Last Chancers.
Upholders
Violently Optimistic Alliance
Wrong Hole.

I would also personally like to thank without naming our wonderful FC, whose calm guidance, patience, professionalism and meticulous planning combined into some of the finest leadership it has ever been my privilege to witness, let alone receive.

As for the other side, we do not believe in needless saber-rattling in this corporation and so to our aggressors our only message is:

o7 gf

-Yakiya Verin Hakatain
Subcoordinator, Alexylva Paradox

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

#62 - 2016-10-12 03:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria, I am not having a religious debate here. I am trying to inform on what Transhumanism is or isn't.

So, let us go over the examples:

1. Peg-leg: Yes, it helps to replace a limb and therefore get around the biological shortfall of not being able to regrow limbs naturally. However, at the same time you have compromised the performance of the leg, and the leg itself is far more prone to damages and need far more regular maintenance. This is a net negative and therefore not transhumanistic. At best you just get a [H], at worst a [H-] because of compromised performance.

2. Tattoos: Not transhumanistic. There is no net positive to the addition of tattoos to the body's performance.

The whole point of transhumanism is to use, by means of technology, is to improve your body beyond the biological base limit, but it cannot simply exceed one limit while go below the other limit. It has to be a net gain. That's why it's usually symbolised with [H+]. The 'plus' here is very important. Does the replacement improve the body in some way? Is it a net positive? If yes, then it is transhumanistic.

Therefore Aradishapur's mechanical arm is not necessarily transhumanistic. If the mechanical arm operates at base human levels and lacks the senses of touch, then his human form is that of [H-]. He had lost something and gain nothing better from the replacement. If the mechanical arm still possesses the sense of touch and has elevated grip strength and operates with the same fluidity of a biological limb, then it's a net gain and therefore [H+].

I think you are simply terrified of the notion that the technology to make an enhanced human makes you less human in a way. You are bringing religion into practicality and technical discussion.

I personally have spiritual doubts about these enhancements, especially in regards to the spirit of the prothestics and how they interact with my spirit, and all its implication, but I do not try to deny that all these enhancements, especially the ones I'm carrying inside my skull right now, has enhanced me fundamentally, changed the human experience. I no longer just have these five senses limited to my biological body, I can extend them further, see what I can't see before, gain knowledge and truly comprehend and put them into practice much higher rate compared to the others who still rely on textbooks, make complex calculations without even being aware of it, even turn death into an inconvenience instead of 'the end', practically speaking. All net positives. All above base human capabilities. I am not a mere [H], I am [H+], and so are you, by virtue of being capsuleer.

What this means to you and what you will do with it is all up to you. Just as how you can use your hands to mold clay or choke the life out of someone, your enhancements too can be used to help others in ways you, and they, can't previously (until they too receive the same enhancement) or be used to destroy others in ways beyond what you thought.

Now on to the spiritual side. I personally believe to be [H+], I must not only just enhance my body but also my spirit. Spirit is cultivated by experience and also by improving our spiritual connection to community and environment. This is also why I am trying to ponder on the nature of spirits. These enhancements, they too have spirits. What happens to them when I add their physical forms to myself? Am I forcing them to bend to my every whim or do these spirits become one with me? Because if I deny the spirit's Andesh (essential spirit) as I use them, bring chaos to their Ohnesh (everchanging material spirit), I too am degrading my own Ohnesh. Therefore outwardly, I may be [H+], but inwardly? I'm a [H-].

That is why I started Project Sebestačný in the first place. I am enhanced, above the human norm. My existence is supposed to be a net positive not just to me, but to my community as well (after all, the community too enriches the spirit and in turn bring the Ohnesh closer to the Andesh, depending on the community). But my ships (especially Destroyers and up) are still crewed by people, and their survival rate hasn't improved one bit. I haven't added one bit to their lives. Transhumanism is supposed to be a benefit, an enhancement, a plus. We humans are not just humans because of our biology, our community, experience, social contracts make us humans too. Therefore, to be a true [H+], I must extend the plus to the community, because only by adding the plus to my community can I truly enrich myself and truly be [H+], both spiritually and physically.

By the way, I am sure Drifters would be considered posthumans. They no longer truly need a biological body, it's now a vestigial organ for them. They can persist on and not have a lesser experience without said body.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

#63 - 2016-10-12 04:10:15 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
To really understand how our spirituality works, you must dispel the notion that there is hierarchy in existence and understand that the very silverware you are using is living.


Emphasis mine.

Does that not apply to humans, Mr. Egivand?

I actually do believe that there is no hierarchy in existence. Things are as they are. One set of tools might be superior to another for a particular purpose, but "better" and "worse" always come with the question, "for what?" Cheaper can be better, if you have little money, to name an obvious example.

"Better" is subjective, relative, and situational. So there can be no true "H+."

Do you believe that there is no hierarchy in existence?

Or do you believe that H+ is a meaningful concept?

It seems tricky to believe both. Perhaps you will explain to me how?
#64 - 2016-10-12 04:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
To really understand how our spirituality works, you must dispel the notion that there is hierarchy in existence and understand that the very silverware you are using is living.


Emphasis mine.

Does that not apply to humans, Mr. Egivand?

I actually do believe that there is no hierarchy in existence. Things are as they are. One set of tools might be superior to another for a particular purpose, but "better" and "worse" always come with the question, "for what?" Cheaper can be better, if you have little money, to name an obvious example.

"Better" is subjective, relative, and situational. So there can be no true "H+."

Do you believe that there is no hierarchy in existence?

Or do you believe that H+ is a meaningful concept?

It seems tricky to believe both. Perhaps you will explain to me how?


I am talking about enrichment, to be better than who we were yesterday. Not hierarchy of beings. Fire is not superior to wind, space is not superior to planetary soil, mountains are not superior to oceans. However, within the community of each beings there will be a hierarchy, hence all the Elders and Seconds and everything. As such, water in itself is not superior to fire, but water vapours are lesser to oceans in terms of volume and usability, though they can enhance themselves by forming rain and join with the rivers, to be bestowed with life-giving and sustaining properties.

Apply this to the concept of [H+]. Being a better, enhanced and improved human. However, I am under the belief that just being enhanced physically isn't true [H+]. If the spirit degrades, at best I am a [H], or my Ohnesh becomes foul and as far away from harmony to my Andesh, a [H-]. I must be a [H+] spiritually as well, being better than I was before 'overall', to truly be [H+].

By the way, in a sense the Amarr religion is about striving towards posthumanism. To leave behind your physical shell to enter a better plane of existence as a better version of yourself, capable of the enhanced version of the human experience (divine experience?) but leave behind all the frailties that come with being biologically human or possessing the body of a human. Posthumanism right there.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

#65 - 2016-10-12 10:56:05 UTC
This thread derailed and it wasn't even by my input this time.

Good job everyone, you dumpstered this thread like we dumstered their fleet.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

#66 - 2016-10-12 12:21:04 UTC
Congrats on your victory, I'm glad to hear it went well. On the bright side it got sidetracked on something sorta related, the beliefs of your corporation as opposed to the usual topics that pop up.
#67 - 2016-10-12 12:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I am talking about enrichment, to be better than who we were yesterday. Not hierarchy of beings. Fire is not superior to wind, space is not superior to planetary soil, mountains are not superior to oceans. However, within the community of each beings there will be a hierarchy, hence all the Elders and Seconds and everything. As such, water in itself is not superior to fire, but water vapours are lesser to oceans in terms of volume and usability, though they can enhance themselves by forming rain and join with the rivers, to be bestowed with life-giving and sustaining properties.

Apply this to the concept of [H+]. Being a better, enhanced and improved human. However, I am under the belief that just being enhanced physically isn't true [H+]. If the spirit degrades, at best I am a [H], or my Ohnesh becomes foul and as far away from harmony to my Andesh, a [H-]. I must be a [H+] spiritually as well, being better than I was before 'overall', to truly be [H+].

By the way, in a sense the Amarr religion is about striving towards posthumanism. To leave behind your physical shell to enter a better plane of existence as a better version of yourself, capable of the enhanced version of the human experience (divine experience?) but leave behind all the frailties that come with being biologically human or possessing the body of a human. Posthumanism right there.


I see. So, if I'm selecting an assassin, I should choose you.

But there are scanners and watchful security in the way, and the intended medium is poison, so I should select a smart baseliner instead, because being unobtrusive will be better.

A common misapprehension about evolution is that it goes "up." It doesn't; it goes forward. Its mechanisms are geared towards surviving immediate circumstances long enough to reproduce, not towards building "better" organisms. Organisms may tend to become more complex over time, but the process is by no means guaranteed. Something big, fast, and strong-- an apex predator-- tends to depend on abundant food to sustain itself, and be vulnerable to loss of that food source, for example. A species that binds itself closely to a symbiotic partner becomes vulnerable to the loss of that partner.

Likewise, we make tradeoffs in the tools we use. The kind of "transhumanity" you seem to want is resource intensive, demanding a certain technological level to remain sustainable. Technology is somewhat tied to social order; a highly technological society involves a lot of specialized knowledge, and it's not difficult to lose specialists. One of the things I've been interested in Origin for is seeing whether they can maintain social order in the mid to long term, considering their highly-experimental approach to society.

(Oh-- and by the way, on tattoos? Whether aesthetic performance counts as "the body's performance" is a little subjective. The Caldari would probably agree with you; the Amarr, however, and probably often the Gallente, look at aesthetics as functional. It's a bit like body-modding at a much subtler level. And then there's the Voluval, which is an interesting topic.)

--------------

About beliefs ... you really don't seem to get where I'm coming from at all. (It's okay, mostly; not many people do.)

I'm not Amarr. One of the reasons I enjoy living among the Amarr is how different their way of thinking is from mine.

I don't believe in any hierarchy of creation, at all. As I noted, every improvement is contextual. Better for what? What are the tradeoffs?

I don't see humanity as some kind of sliding scale; it's not something gained or lost.

That was my predecessor's idea. It led to dark places. I think I did some harm, when I was her, by arguing we'd become something fundamentally different from humanity. Maybe a lot of harm.

To me ... "human" is a word. Like all words, it means what we agree it to mean. If it becomes a technical term, that just means there's a group of specialized people using a particular definition as a kind of standardized measure. It doesn't make it any more "real," just harder to dislodge.

Weighing people's humanity, or mine, is not a game I choose to play any more. I don't see it as a useful game, unless people are looking for reasons to harm people they see as different.

For my own purposes: I'm human. Period. So are baseliners, Jove, and Sleepers-- even if they're just minds wandering a computer network.

All human.
#68 - 2016-10-12 14:53:20 UTC
Wow, I can't believe we survived.

Er, I mean. I was always confident that victory was assured.
Sani-Sabik
#69 - 2016-10-12 16:40:38 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)


Blood Raiders have the longest average lifespan of the cluster's Empires, madam, and their technology is roughly what I would consider allowable (of technology so far invented).


Because of Blood Raider's medical technology and I am sure, gene-modding. I've heard the things their ground-stompers can do without resorting to mech-augs. Clearly there's some top grade bio-augs involved here.


Saints give me patience.

This is about those Covenant ladies, with the bioengineered muscle fibres, that gives them the strength to snap peoples necks with their thighs, isn't it.

It always is.

I don't know what cheap Gallente holo-fiction that nonsense appeared in, but now it's become a meme, and there's no getting away from it.

Sigh.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Arataka Research Consortium
#70 - 2016-10-13 01:54:18 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)


Blood Raiders have the longest average lifespan of the cluster's Empires, madam, and their technology is roughly what I would consider allowable (of technology so far invented).


Because of Blood Raider's medical technology and I am sure, gene-modding. I've heard the things their ground-stompers can do without resorting to mech-augs. Clearly there's some top grade bio-augs involved here.


Saints give me patience.

This is about those Covenant ladies, with the bioengineered muscle fibres, that gives them the strength to snap peoples necks with their thighs, isn't it.

It always is.

I don't know what cheap Gallente holo-fiction that nonsense appeared in, but now it's become a meme, and there's no getting away from it.

Sigh.

There's only one thing for it, Doctor Valate. Have bio-engineered muscle fibres implanted in your thighs and get crushing!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#71 - 2016-10-13 02:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I see. So, if I'm selecting an assassin, I should choose you.

But there are scanners and watchful security in the way, and the intended medium is poison, so I should select a smart baseliner instead, because being unobtrusive will be better.

A common misapprehension about evolution is that it goes "up." It doesn't; it goes forward. Its mechanisms are geared towards surviving immediate circumstances long enough to reproduce, not towards building "better" organisms. Organisms may tend to become more complex over time, but the process is by no means guaranteed. Something big, fast, and strong-- an apex predator-- tends to depend on abundant food to sustain itself, and be vulnerable to loss of that food source, for example. A species that binds itself closely to a symbiotic partner becomes vulnerable to the loss of that partner.

Likewise, we make tradeoffs in the tools we use. The kind of "transhumanity" you seem to want is resource intensive, demanding a certain technological level to remain sustainable. Technology is somewhat tied to social order; a highly technological society involves a lot of specialized knowledge, and it's not difficult to lose specialists. One of the things I've been interested in Origin for is seeing whether they can maintain social order in the mid to long term, considering their highly-experimental approach to society.

(Oh-- and by the way, on tattoos? Whether aesthetic performance counts as "the body's performance" is a little subjective. The Caldari would probably agree with you; the Amarr, however, and probably often the Gallente, look at aesthetics as functional. It's a bit like body-modding at a much more subtler level. And then there's the Voluval, which is an interesting topic.)

--------------

About beliefs ... you really don't seem to get where I'm coming from at all. (It's okay, mostly; not many people do.)

I'm not Amarr. One of the reasons I enjoy living among the Amarr is how different their way of thinking is from mine.

I don't believe in any hierarchy of creation, at all. As I noted, every improvement is contextual. Better for what? What are the tradeoffs?

I don't see humanity as some kind of sliding scale; it's not something gained or lost.

That was my predecessor's idea. It led to dark places. I think I did some harm, when I was her, by arguing we'd become something fundamentally different from humanity. Maybe a lot of harm.

To me ... "human" is a word. Like all words, it means what we agree it to mean. If it becomes a technical term, that just means there's a group of specialized people using a particular definition as a kind of standardized measure. It doesn't make it any more "real," just harder to dislodge.

Weighing people's humanity, or mine, is not a game I choose to play any more. I don't see it as a useful game, unless people are looking for reasons to harm people they see as different.

For my own purposes: I'm human. Period. So are baseliners, Jove, and Sleepers-- even if they're just minds wandering a computer network.

All human.


Aria, you do know that there is something called 'bio-augs' right? If I want to send an assassin, I send a biologically augmented agent, not a mechanically augmented one.

However, if I want someone who can pilot ships to break through the most common blockades or take on entire fleets of baseliners and generally cause a mess of things in space, or at least efficiently get something across light years, I send another transhuman: a capsuleer.

Then there's a construction. If I have the money, I will hire the guys with the mechanical limbs, or the full body cyborgs.

But you are very right about the cost and tech issues. Transhumanism is very, very expensive. And again, all the social issues that come along with it. If it weren't for any of these, we could expect to see full body cyborgs or fully bio-enhanced humans or full-body mixed-bio-mech aug individuals strolling all over the place, people who are just better at everything in every way, instead of a couple guys with bio or mech augs on some body parts which makes them superior in some way but baseline in many other ways.

Physically, a transhuman is as I described, enhanced human. However, no amount of augmentations is going to really change a person inside. If the person decides to use his augmentations for ill, well, he probably would have done the same thing if I were to give him a very large knife, wouldn't he? I am transhuman. All that means is that I'm improved over the standard norm. I can do things others can't do nearly as well or can't do at all, despite intensive training. Which makes me suited for tasks humans can't normally do. That's all there is to it.

Personally, I am not content with just that. I believe that I have to also be cultivated spiritually to match the physical enhancements. Be a much better person, an enhanced person inside and out. Hence all the ponderings I have on the issue from time to time.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

#72 - 2016-10-13 15:04:08 UTC
In no way related to any mentions of such augments in this thread, VaskkTech is now offering a sale on Sub-dermal muscular nano-enhancement procedures and skeletal reinforcement!

Redeem your vouchers and schedule your procedure by emailing myself via the standard Neocomm channels. Openings are going fast!

Dr. Ninavask Revan

Colonist

Alexylva Paradox

The views above are the opinions and beliefs of Dr. Ninavask and do in no way reflect on his employeers or associates at the time of posting.

Amarr Empire
#73 - 2016-10-14 04:15:44 UTC
The God showed you mercy that day. But how will you use it? Will you accept Him and show Him your gratitude? Or will you return to your unholy ways and display outrageous and blasphemous ingratitude? It is for you to decide. Remember though, if He can give you peace, He can take it away.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))

Sani-Sabik
#74 - 2016-10-14 04:55:12 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)


Blood Raiders have the longest average lifespan of the cluster's Empires, madam, and their technology is roughly what I would consider allowable (of technology so far invented).


Because of Blood Raider's medical technology and I am sure, gene-modding. I've heard the things their ground-stompers can do without resorting to mech-augs. Clearly there's some top grade bio-augs involved here.


Saints give me patience.

This is about those Covenant ladies, with the bioengineered muscle fibres, that gives them the strength to snap peoples necks with their thighs, isn't it.

It always is.

I don't know what cheap Gallente holo-fiction that nonsense appeared in, but now it's become a meme, and there's no getting away from it.

Sigh.

There's only one thing for it, Doctor Valate. Have bio-engineered muscle fibres implanted in your thighs and get crushing!


What ? Are... are you flirting with me ? That's inappropriate, you're married !

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

#75 - 2016-10-14 15:39:54 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
The God showed you mercy that day. But how will you use it? Will you accept Him and show Him your gratitude? Or will you return to your unholy ways and display outrageous and blasphemous ingratitude? It is for you to decide. Remember though, if He can give you peace, He can take it away.


God looks an awful lot like a hundred capsuleers and an entirely comprehensible military strategy supported by a solid defensive base....

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Caldari State
#76 - 2016-10-15 14:11:39 UTC
Pity. I would prefer to see more bombs exploding in the rat hole.

Disrespect to attackers, who left the job half-done. Unprofessional.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#77 - 2016-10-17 20:24:00 UTC
You wound me Diana, you wound me. That's my home you're talking about.

Dr. Ninavask Revan

Colonist

Alexylva Paradox

The views above are the opinions and beliefs of Dr. Ninavask and do in no way reflect on his employeers or associates at the time of posting.

Arataka Research Consortium
#78 - 2016-10-18 00:12:56 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:

Pieter Tuullinen wrote:

There's only one thing for it, Doctor Valate. Have bio-engineered muscle fibres implanted in your thighs and get crushing!

What ? Are... are you flirting with me ? That's inappropriate, you're married !


You think my idea of kinky is getting my skull crushed? No - I wasn't flirting I was suggesting a paradox. The Paradox was that you punish those spreading a stereotype by subjecting them to that stereotype.

It was a humorous play on words.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#79 - 2016-10-18 02:12:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:

Pieter Tuullinen wrote:

There's only one thing for it, Doctor Valate. Have bio-engineered muscle fibres implanted in your thighs and get crushing!

What ? Are... are you flirting with me ? That's inappropriate, you're married !


You think my idea of kinky is getting my skull crushed? No - I wasn't flirting I was suggesting a paradox. The Paradox was that you punish those spreading a stereotype by subjecting them to that stereotype.

It was a humorous play on words.


I don't think that's a paradox. A paradox has to be logically inconclusive. For example, X leads to the absence of Y, but X exists because of Y, so without Y, X won't exist, leading to the presence of Y, which leads to the existence of X that causes the absence of Y, therefore...

What you are saying sounds closer to being irony.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Arataka Research Consortium
#80 - 2016-10-18 04:57:22 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:

Pieter Tuullinen wrote:

There's only one thing for it, Doctor Valate. Have bio-engineered muscle fibres implanted in your thighs and get crushing!

What ? Are... are you flirting with me ? That's inappropriate, you're married !


You think my idea of kinky is getting my skull crushed? No - I wasn't flirting I was suggesting a paradox. The Paradox was that you punish those spreading a stereotype by subjecting them to that stereotype.

It was a humorous play on words.


I don't think that's a paradox. A paradox has to be logically inconclusive. For example, X leads to the absence of Y, but X exists because of Y, so without Y, X won't exist, leading to the presence of Y, which leads to the existence of X that causes the absence of Y, therefore...

What you are saying sounds closer to being irony.

Rusty irony?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

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