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MWD vs Afterburner for PvP (not frigates)

Author
Panic Attack.
#1 - 2016-10-16 13:10:59 UTC
Hey folks, can someone square this away here as sometimes it seems so confusing as to which one to choose?

OK, very quickly my thoughts:

1 - Having a mwd seems very cool (despite it's cap consumption) and gives you the idea that you can go so fast running rings round everyone. However, signature radius issues plus agility issues surface and therefore you are just pulsing it (mwd) at best to do what you want to do most of the time, so it's a bit micro-management intensive usually....it seems.

2 - Almost everyone you meet in PvP has a warp scram/web fit...so it pretty much turns it off for the duration of the fight.

3 - If number 2 happens then you at at risk of being easily kited if you have a blaster fit. At least with an afterburner it's better to have like 450m/s than 180m/s.

4 - Getting kited bothers me as so many PvPers use the tactic, so I actually like rails with javelin rounds and a tracking computer with tracking script if something gets too close...but you can also hit them if they try to kite you. Is this a silly idea or not?

5 - Some people say that if you use a mwd and blasters then it's all or nothing.....you either get close to them and hold them there or you die if you fail. Is it as simple as that?

I have lost blaster fit ships because I've been scrammed/kited but I've also had some success with rails but the propulsion fit quest often confuses me........maybe I should just get into mjd in battlecruisers and above...haha.

Cheers for any points.



#2 - 2016-10-16 14:21:58 UTC
Hendrix Foster wrote:
Hey folks, can someone square this away here as sometimes it seems so confusing as to which one to choose?

Just a basic response.

MWD give you a greater increase in speed, but that comes with increased cap use and it radically increases your sig radius which makes it easier for others to lock onto you and because sig radius is a factor in damage equations you are more susceptible to taking damage. Also a MWD can be shut down by a warp scrambler module.

AB does not give you as much of a speed boost, they consume less cap and they do not increase you sig radius and they cannot be shut down by a warp scrambler or a warp disrupter.

Which you use depends entirely on the situation you are in and what you need / want.
Panic Attack.
#3 - 2016-10-16 14:49:44 UTC
Thanks for the reply man and I'm aware of the basics.

If there are any more refined answers that take into the points 1-5 then it would be swell and noted.
#4 - 2016-10-16 15:52:58 UTC
What space, like normal low, fw low or 0.0?
Panic Attack.
#5 - 2016-10-16 16:24:47 UTC
Let's say low sec.....as that seems to suitably resemble enough chaos for me.
#6 - 2016-10-16 22:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
i imagine solo pvp?
i'm not an expert.
i'd opt for

- mwd (+nanofit) if i want kiting ship, this setup require quite the skills: once you get scram you're done.

- mwd (webx2+scram) if a brawler, i just overheat mwd and double click near the target, hoping to get in scram/web range and lock him down. if i fail, just retry. with the same type of web/scram your enemy should have the same range as you on those.
different ships with bonus can have different success (i.e. bonus on web range/efficiency)

- ab-kiting (scram+web) basically this fit allow you to keep your enemy at the range of your scram if he is MWD fitted. and the ab can help you mitigate some damage, specially if you can keep up your transversal.

but generally every setup has his own pros/cons...
when you got kited, in your blaster setup, maybe you didn't go up to a certain speed before entering his scram range?
did you have a scram/web on you to use on your enemy? etc

i've seen rhiload using a 3prop Barghest nano fitted (with links) etc
MWD to kite
AB to **** HIC up if scram
and mjd to get the f**k out Big smile
#7 - 2016-10-16 22:39:20 UTC
I think a success ratio depends on how you pick your situations.

Blaster fits are awesome for stations and gate 'ganks'. Places where you know and control the range.
I think rails are better for roaming into unknown space. Less DPS but more versatile.

As for the propulsion mod.
I think you have to fit a MWD with blasters. Nothing worse than a slow blaster boat...
The rail fit is more optional to me. The risk you take; is someone getting under your guns, and not outside of them.

Most of my hybrid experience has been in BC and BS, where sig radius isn't really a concern.
Smaller ships, I lean towards missile platforms. and projectiles.


O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#8 - 2016-10-17 00:41:55 UTC
Since most of the basics are covered already, let me point out some things to consider.

The mwd gives you more speed than any other mod, so jumping into a situation that looks grim to begin with and you want to pull range as fast as possible.
At gatecamps an afterburner can allow you to get back to a gate, depending on distances. Sometimes the situation looks more grim than it is.

Usually a mwd is crucial to moving around when your intended target is too far away or you want to split up a group that has different ships.

A rule of thumb is mwd > afterburner unless the ship and your fit allow both or you fly a ship with special abilities.

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Panic Attack.
#9 - 2016-10-17 01:49:13 UTC
Thanks for the answers, lots to think about there and some good ideas.

Quote:
....did you have a scram/web on you to use on your enemy? etc


I think I only had a scram so that could have been a blunder and why I lost that boat Soel Reit.

#10 - 2016-10-17 04:06:58 UTC
Hendrix Foster wrote:
Let's say low sec.....as that seems to suitably resemble enough chaos for me.

K, in normal low - belts/non gated plexes and system gates are where most of your fights will happen then.
So in belts/no gate plexes you will be just a sitting duck for any inti/kite frig/cruiser easy for the pickings if AB is your only prop, with MWD you can at least try to slingshot it in your o-heated web/scram range or slingshot out and warp away. On gates AB can help if you decide to disengage vs an opponent with scram/no or only one web and you are close enough to the gate, but even then MWD gives you "separation" and more mobility so you can remove (or try to) the most unwanted ships first.

So imo in normal low the most effective prop variations are MWD; dual prop (AB/MWD); oversized prop (100MN, tho agility and fitting sacrafices you make for that can be a pita) just AB as an only prop is too restrictive for the environment you are flying in.

For blaster ships you can always fit dual web/scram/hull tank. x2 webs help with range control when you get in scram range and hull tank gives reasonable buffer and negate the cap issue.
#11 - 2016-10-17 08:42:50 UTC
Hendrix Foster wrote:
Thanks for the answers, lots to think about there and some good ideas.

Quote:
....did you have a scram/web on you to use on your enemy? etc


I think I only had a scram so that could have been a blunder and why I lost that boat Soel Reit.



yep i thougth that you had not much control.
specially in solo pvp, who can dictate the range of the fight usually win.

for that to happen you need control aka scram/web/speed.
depending on the ship and on your fit you can choose one of those or all three, up to you.

also the range of targets you can engage depends on the ship you are flying.
so you dying there, besides lack of control, could have been a "wrong decision to engage" something you couldn't engage in the ship you were flying.

all good though, experience will make up for it.
and the positive attitude of asking advices here on the forum and/or in corp/alliance chat will help you even further.

have fun dude! Blink
#12 - 2016-10-17 14:34:36 UTC
1: Yes.
2: Yes.
3: It Depends(tm).
4: It Depends(tm)
5: If we're talking frigates, then, usually, Yes.


FYI: Some people, like myself, like to fly 'Dual Prop', with both an MWD and AB. This works particularly well with Dramiels and Firetails.

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#13 - 2016-10-21 09:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
I can think of 3 basic uses for a prop mod in PVP:

1. Position your ship before a fight

2. Position your ship during a fight (aka 'range control')

3. Mitigate incoming damage


#1 is the least important (because you can also achieve with good warp-ins or MJDs). Obviously an MWD is more convenient as it makes you go faster than an AB.

#2 is simple: AB works in scram range, MWD works out of scram range. For cruisers and above, range control in scram range is not so important (imho), so you almost always use an MWD, either to kite or to chase people to scram & brawl them.

#3 basically only really works with an AB due to sig bloom. On ships with MWD sig bloom reduction, use an MWD.


Basic examples:

. kiting --> MWD
. tackling --> MWD
. scram kiting --> AB
. dmg mitigation --> AB
. EDIT: you can also NOT have a prop mod; for example MJD ships or creative fits, where you trade-off prop for an unexpected strong shield tank or extra utility

Last point: in a fleet situation, ask the FC. You never want to have a different prop mod than your fleetmates (or, more precisely, your rolemates: it's not uncommon to have MWD DPS and AB logistics, for example).

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#14 - 2016-10-26 11:50:15 UTC
So, first up, unlike frigate pvp even the most close range weapons have enough range that scram kiting as such isnt that big an issue. A blaster ranis at 8km wont do much damage, a thorax or a navy exe still will, and for BS - well it will do basicely full damage and be happier at that range anyways. So while a blaster frig might need an ab to not totally die, you dont need it as much for cruisers and bigger.


So, mwd vs ab:

In a 1v1, starting within scram range a AB is superior to a mwd, it gives you range control and damage migation vs some targets. That is a advantage, but as said before the advantage isnt as big as it would be in the frig or dessie meta. Also its easier to fit and better on the cap.

Now, the reasons you usually want a mwd is that it allows you to move on grid and it allows you to escape or catch kiters. Lets say you fly a thorax, you are inside a medium at 0 and a stabber and two moas arrive on scan - now with an AB you would have to run. But with the MWD you can burn 200km off, wait for the much faster stabber to seperate itself and attempt to kill the stabber before the moas can catch up. Or if you are scared that there will be a blob coming, burn off 200kms and you have a lot of buffer time wise.

Or if the stabber has you pointed a mwd allows you to get away, while a ab ship is just to slow. In general the utility offered by the mwd usually outways the stronger 1v1 capabilities of the AB. Almost all cruisers dont really care about range control within 8km.


Now there are reasons to use both, which is dualprop (like on a oldschool sfi or cynabal) or to use an oversized AB. This gives you mwd speed with ab sig, giving you absurd sig tank - but you usually need links and implants and bling to make that work.



basicely, use a mwd
#15 - 2016-10-26 20:00:31 UTC
Unless you are running dual prop and scram kiting or flying a Phantsm, MWD all the way.

On ships larger than a frigate an AB generally doesnt give you enough speed to evade tackle and therefore remain mobile.

If you have guns that operate within scram range, you should also have a scram fitted to counterscram, and ideally a web as well, though if you have the fitting space, an AB can wotk like a scram to make sure you can stay faster than your opponents. Dual prop has a lot going for it; especially when you throw MJDs into the mix. Pulsemare with a deadspace AB and a MJD is a lot of fun.

my other nano is a polycarb

Top Belt for Fun
#16 - 2016-11-02 04:07:29 UTC
MWD or MJD for almost every ship larger than a frigate. Medium sized weapons and larger should not get "kited" in scram range. Load null for your blasters if you need more range. If you have AB on a cruiser or larger, you will be slow and only able to engage what lands on top of you or MWD's to you to engage you which is probably a bad scenario. The notion that you can run circles around other ships is laughable because they too will have MWD and neither of you are very fast unless flying a ship purposefully built for speed.

Solo Rifter since 2009

The Wraithguard.
#17 - 2016-11-03 16:30:09 UTC
MWD for most ships for pvp, unless you re flying a larger AB or bonused ship. Most people are kyting theses days, you will surely die in a blaster boat with ab.
#18 - 2016-11-03 20:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Kiting fits are the bane of blaster boats, but they can be dealt with if you know how.

If you're being scram kited (i.e. AB + scram), load up Null (assuming you're in a cruiser or bigger) and you can usually hit them if you pilot manually to keep traversal down.

If you're being long-point kited (i.e. Nano MWD), pulse/overheat your MWD to help you slingshot them into scram range where you can typically melt their face.

I've been a blaster pilot on and off for years (back to before scrams shut off MWDs) and as a general rule I've found fitting dual webs to be more useful than fitting dual prop mods. With dual webs you have an easier time countering both kinds of kiting fits, whereas dual prop mods won't really help you against a long-point kiter.

The downside of this is that you need four mids dedicated to propulsion and tackle (MWD, scram, 2x webs) which means on most hulls you're out of mids. However, if you're hull tanking your Gallente blaster boats, this isn't too big of an issue.

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#19 - 2016-11-05 09:54:08 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Hendrix Foster wrote:
Hey folks, can someone square this away here as sometimes it seems so confusing as to which one to choose?

Just a basic response.

MWD give you a greater increase in speed, but that comes with increased cap use and it radically increases your sig radius which makes it easier for others to lock onto you and because sig radius is a factor in damage equations you are more susceptible to taking damage. Also a MWD can be shut down by a warp scrambler module.





The OP mentioned those things in the first couple of lines of his post. Roll

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