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A Brief Note on the Theology Council Edict on Souls of Clones.

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Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2016-12-25 18:31:03 UTC
Quartz Jori wrote:
I'm not sure you can divorce Naupilius from the fate of his... 'supply.' Not totally.

It's not like he just put them up on a sell order and Mokk happened to buy them. Naup is negotiating a transaction with full knowledge of the fate that awaits the slaves. He is directly responsible for handing the slaves over to Mokk which means he is directly responsible for placing them in danger.

You can only really get away with reasoning like this going if you're following a fairly long series of events. The miner handing minerals off to a corp that happens to manufacture weapons might not be directly responsible if some of his product winds up in a rifle which is used to do Bad Things, but Naup is personally handing off mortals to die. He cannot be separated from their fate entirely.


Mokk is only seeking out Nauplius to sell because he knows Nauplius is a buyer. He's not specifically saying 'I want to sell to Nauplius, as evidenced by the numerous counter-offers he has entertained of 'sell to me instead of that monster'. He just wants to sell, and Nauplius is a known purchaser. Nauplius has, I'm sure, no shortage of supply chains available to him. Without Mokk, he'd still get his tons of flesh.

Mokk's responsible for his own crimes. He's not responsible for someone else's. No matter how he gets them, Nauplius bears the responsibility for what Nauplius does to his slaves. He doesn't get to spread the blame out to lessen the load.
Asteria Concord.
#102 - 2016-12-25 18:31:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
You've got the names backwards. Otherwise, you are correct.

I swear this happens every time I'm on a message board. It should be fixed now.
Pandemic Legion
#103 - 2016-12-25 18:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Arrendis wrote:
Mokk's responsible for his own crimes. He's not responsible for someone else's. No matter how he gets them, Nauplius bears the responsibility for what Nauplius does to his slaves. He doesn't get to spread the blame out to lessen the load.
This is bullshit. He is selling Slaves directly to a psychopath with full knowledge they will be tortured, mutilated, and killed.

Guess what, that is a crime. and he is responsible for it.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Asteria Concord.
#104 - 2016-12-25 18:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartz Jori
Arrendis wrote:
Quartz Jori wrote:
I'm not sure you can divorce Naupilius from the fate of his... 'supply.' Not totally.

It's not like he just put them up on a sell order and Mokk happened to buy them. Naup is negotiating a transaction with full knowledge of the fate that awaits the slaves. He is directly responsible for handing the slaves over to Mokk which means he is directly responsible for placing them in danger.

You can only really get away with reasoning like this going if you're following a fairly long series of events. The miner handing minerals off to a corp that happens to manufacture weapons might not be directly responsible if some of his product winds up in a rifle which is used to do Bad Things, but Naup is personally handing off mortals to die. He cannot be separated from their fate entirely.


Mokk is only seeking out Nauplius to sell because he knows Nauplius is a buyer. He's not specifically saying 'I want to sell to Nauplius, as evidenced by the numerous counter-offers he has entertained of 'sell to me instead of that monster'. He just wants to sell, and Nauplius is a known purchaser. Nauplius has, I'm sure, no shortage of supply chains available to him. Without Mokk, he'd still get his tons of flesh.

Mokk's responsible for his own crimes. He's not responsible for someone else's. No matter how he gets them, Nauplius bears the responsibility for what Nauplius does to his slaves. He doesn't get to spread the blame out to lessen the load.

Naup's responsibility is not lessened because he was facilitated by a third party but you cannot divorce Mokk from the fate of the slaves which he has sold. If he is selling slaves with the full knowledge of what awaits them at the hands of a buyer he is still responsible for delivering them to that fate.

You might as well argue that if I push a man into a fire I am not responsible for his death since I am not what burned him.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#105 - 2016-12-25 18:40:40 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Mokk is only seeking out Nauplius to sell because he knows Nauplius is a buyer. He's not specifically saying 'I want to sell to Nauplius, as evidenced by the numerous counter-offers he has entertained of 'sell to me instead of that monster'. He just wants to sell, and Nauplius is a known purchaser. Nauplius has, I'm sure, no shortage of supply chains available to him. Without Mokk, he'd still get his tons of flesh.

Mokk's responsible for his own crimes. He's not responsible for someone else's. No matter how he gets them, Nauplius bears the responsibility for what Nauplius does to his slaves. He doesn't get to spread the blame out to lessen the load.


Anyone who knowingly sells to him is complicit in his evil. They know what he does, and make the choice to ignore it. It's about principles.
Triumvirate.
#106 - 2016-12-25 18:57:58 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


Anyone who knowingly sells to him is complicit in his evil. They know what he does, and make the choice to ignore it. It's about principles.


Principles have a convenient way of falling by the wayside when there is a good profit to be made. Also there are those who simply know the name and not the fate of the slaves, are they then complicit also?
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#107 - 2016-12-25 19:00:06 UTC
Blame is a substance much like joy, in that it's not diminished by spreading around. Fun to assign, too.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#108 - 2016-12-25 19:26:30 UTC
Vlad Cetes wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Anyone who knowingly sells to him is complicit in his evil. They know what he does, and make the choice to ignore it. It's about principles.


Principles have a convenient way of falling by the wayside when there is a good profit to be made. Also there are those who simply know the name and not the fate of the slaves, are they then complicit also?


Anyone who has the power to act against evil and fails to do so is complicit to evil. And anyone who would give up principles for pursuit of selfish interests or profit is weak.

If we're going to talk about things that damage the soul, there are two examples right there.
Triumvirate.
#109 - 2016-12-25 20:50:24 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


Anyone who has the power to act against evil and fails to do so is complicit to evil. And anyone who would give up principles for pursuit of selfish interests or profit is weak.

If we're going to talk about things that damage the soul, there are two examples right there.


Profit IS a principle. After all, what primary principle drives the mega corporations?

You also talk about evil as a fixed concept. Good and evil are simply relative to whatever philosophy a human subscribes to
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2016-12-25 23:25:04 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
This is bullshit. He is selling Slaves directly to a psychopath with full knowledge they will be tortured, mutilated, and killed.

Guess what, that is a crime. and he is responsible for it.


Is it? Where does Pandemic Horde outlaw that? For that matter, where does Pandemic Legion outlaw slaving, torture, mutilation, or killing people in their space?

If it's true, I'd be glad to hear it, but there's been absolutely no statements of the sort from Gobbins, Grath, Elise...
Arataka Research Consortium
#111 - 2016-12-25 23:32:28 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

Is it? Where does Pandemic Horde outlaw that? For that matter, where does Pandemic Legion outlaw slaving, torture, mutilation, or killing people in their space?

If it's true, I'd be glad to hear it, but there's been absolutely no statements of the sort from Gobbins, Grath, Elise...

Can you point us to somewhere where they allow it though?
Mercenary Coalition
#112 - 2016-12-25 23:47:48 UTC
That's not how laws work. More importantly, what those people do or do not allow is perfectly irrelevant. This is a transaction between capsuleers allowed in its entirety by the powers that be, be it in sovsec or highsec. Unless he's smuggling them past certain borders, there's no crime committed.

It's an atrocity, sure. It's just not something a court can ever touch, as long as slaves are legal commodities.
Arataka Research Consortium
#113 - 2016-12-25 23:52:49 UTC
The good news being that vigilantism isn't "disallowed" either. And highly encouraged and supported if you market it properly.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#114 - 2016-12-26 01:08:05 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Yes. If the soul is embodied, then having multiple clones at once either means that the soul is diffused between them in some fashion or that only one of them is an embodied soul and the rest are soulless monsters.


What of a cloned Body that is animated by an entirely New Personality, that is not a clone of an existing Person ? Do they have a Soul ?


The ruling says nothing either way about the possibility of souls for synthetic beings.

The Phrase "As the flesh of their birth would speak to us." could be interpreted as damning to synthetic beings and those who have modified their bodies to be unrecognizable from human. That is how I understood it though, like you, I am not a Theologian.


I just don't think that this particular issue is within the scope of the ruling. It seems solely concerned with people who are born and then cloned. I don't think it can be made to have any meaning for entities that do not fall into that category.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

#115 - 2016-12-26 06:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
This obviously isn't an unimportant question for me.

I'm not of the Faith, myself, of course. I'm not part of the Imperial Rite. ... just a shadow. Even so, knowing how the Rite sees me, and those around me, matters a little. Even just conceding that my Imperial superiors aren't just empty, tragic mannequins is something. Maybe I should know better than this, but, a faith that sees something worthwhile in us is easier for me to see value in, than one that discards us all as monsters.

My own situation's unusual enough that I'm not in a rush for anything clear. Whether "souls" as separate spiritual entities exist or not, I'm not whole. I'm not well. That's obvious enough. (I'm healthier than I might have been, though.) Maybe I have a soul of my own. Maybe it's just a fragment of my predecessor's. Maybe it's not there at all, and I'm just a hollow shell of muscles and thoughts pretending to be a living person.

That would be absurd, but, I guess, it doesn't matter so much to me. I don't expect to exist beyond this world anyway.

I guess, if I'm not included, I don't care so much. What I want to be sure is affirmed is that my colleagues in the Society are as human as any baseliner-- that we're people, not monsters, and that we should be treated as people.

For me, that's what this is about: recognizing cloned human beings as human, in the ways that matter to other humans of their culture.
#116 - 2016-12-26 13:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different.


But is it?

Consider: is it the potential longevity that causes the disassociation with mortality, or the serial replacement of the deceased with another being who self-identifies as the same being?

Full disclosure on this, I disagree with the majority of 'accepted' capsuleer thought in that I don't consider myself immortal. I consider myself just under 37d old, with a life expectancy of approximately 28-32d. Pushing that envelope now, though. Go me! Eventually, there will be another Arrendis Culome, just as there have been more of us so far than I really feel comfortable counting, given that average life expectancy. When that next 'me' shows up, she won't be me. I'll have died. She'll just have all my memories. There will not be a true continuity of experience, only a record of the experiences of myself and my predecessors.

I bring up the difference because we've seen the slow disassociative tendencies recorded in the behavior of extremely long-lived Amarr nobility, who, after all, can stretch their lives out to well over three or four centuries. Is that a similar condition? Is it related? It is the same condition, only developing slower because of the different nature and time-scales on which the individual faces the idea that everyone around them dies, but they stay just the same?

It doesn't happen to all of them, but then, it doesn't happen to all of us, either. So while understanding the cause of a condition is certainly necessary in order to understand the condition (but not, as I already mentioned, necessary to understand the impact that condition has), it's a bit premature to try to definitively claim that anything is the 'only one that makes it possible'.

Note: 'if you remove the mechanics' in your example would less be a case of removing the mechanics, and more one of 'if you remove the condition', given you've based the statement on the premise that cloning is the only possible way to engender 'practical immortality'. Thus, given your premise, you'd be altering or completely removiong the condition.


Are there any other means by which immortality can be achieved besides cloning, not prolonging of mortal life (in case of nobility and their use of cyber implants), but as the word means by definition - endless existence as existence with no end to it.
I do not consider potential longevity as to be the cause, but I am more of the mind that removal of an end point could play a key role in all of it. You might not consider yourself immortal, but entity that is Arrendis Culome fit the definition of immortal. No matter how many clone bodies you lose it will still exist with no end in sight.

Arrendis wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
This is bullshit. He is selling Slaves directly to a psychopath with full knowledge they will be tortured, mutilated, and killed.

Guess what, that is a crime. and he is responsible for it.


Is it? Where does Pandemic Horde outlaw that? For that matter, where does Pandemic Legion outlaw slaving, torture, mutilation, or killing people in their space?

If it's true, I'd be glad to hear it, but there's been absolutely no statements of the sort from Gobbins, Grath, Elise...


Not a crime that violates the law of a ruling body, but a crime as an offense that is a violation of morality.
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2016-12-26 17:26:58 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Are there any other means by which immortality can be achieved besides cloning, not prolonging of mortal life (in case of nobility and their use of cyber implants), but as the word means by definition - endless existence as existence with no end to it.


Well, since the condition cited was 'practical immortality', not 'actual immortality', that's not quite relevant. Besides, I don't think anyone's been a clone until the heat death of the universe yet, so we can't actually establish 'existence with no end to it'. Not that capsuleers have that, either: turn off the clone beds, and we're done. It's more a perception of immortality that's in question.

Quote:

I do not consider potential longevity as to be the cause, but I am more of the mind that removal of an end point could play a key role in all of it.


Well, that's lovely and all, but science—including medical science—doesn't care what we consider something, it only cares what the data says, and we haven't even begun collecting that data, so making authoritative statements is pretty useless.

Quote:

You might not consider yourself immortal, but entity that is Arrendis Culome fit the definition of immortal. No matter how many clone bodies you lose it will still exist with no end in sight.


I'd say rather that the identity of 'Arrendis Culome' approaches immortality—as it exists in the minds of others. It's the perceived presence of Arrendis Culome that persists, not the continuity of any internal existence. You might as well say that 'Punisher-class hulls are immortal' because if you blow one up, it can be reproduced exactly, right down to the dents and scratches, as long as they were measured. It's only the biochemical bits—the crew, as analagous to the capsuleer's body—that's killed. That's what we are: we're reproductions. We're incredible forgeries of a dead person who, in most of our cases, was also a forgery.

How well does your assertion of immortality hold up in the face of evidence like Aria Jenneth, for example?

Quote:

Not a crime that violates the law of a ruling body, but a crime as an offense that is a violation of morality.


Morality is subjective. Morality is the law of a ruling body—just a very large, diffuse one called 'society'. For example: Some societies consider enslaving others in order to forcibly insert their culture and spiritual beliefs into those people to be a moral action.

Some consider it cultural—well, I don't think I have to provide the label for sticking yourself into someone else without consent, do I?
Pandemic Legion
#118 - 2016-12-26 22:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Arrendis wrote:
Is it? Where does Pandemic Horde outlaw that? For that matter, where does Pandemic Legion outlaw slaving, torture, mutilation, or killing people in their space?

If it's true, I'd be glad to hear it, but there's been absolutely no statements of the sort from Gobbins, Grath, Elise...
We, like most alliances including yours, do not make laws that effect things outside the scope of piloting. It is very rare that an alliance would make laws on terrestrial, social, or economic issues to my understanding. I personally can only think of a small handful that have any laws like that. That said, I am sure all three would be just *thrilled* to have their members flaunting what Sinjin is doing. I have little experience with Gobbins but I think we all know how Grath and Elise view things like this and if not, you can just ask them.

I sort of doubt they are concerned with the claims and actions of a random horde pilot while the winter holiday season is on though. It would be like asking Mittani to rule on a case of someone shooting cans of slaves and claiming it makes the astronomicon stay lit. Not likely he will be interested, though he may have a strong opinion on it. Sort of a delegated job i.e. call a diplomat.

I did very much consider going to a Horde director to have him removed when I saw what he was doing but decided against it.

<< OOC note: I am not the kind of person to report and have someone kicked from their corp over rp. Nothing against those who play those stakes or want others to be held to them as that is what makes eve rp unique, I just personally am not interested in doing so, especially from Horde. >>


Regardless, I was speaking of it as a crime in an absolute, not something explicitly or specifically prohibited in Pandemic Horde or any terrestrial law. If it continues to be a problem perhaps a diplomat should be contacted.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2016-12-26 23:46:10 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
It would be like asking Mittani to rule on a case of someone shooting cans of slaves and claiming it makes the astronomicon stay lit. Not likely he will be interested, though he may have a strong opinion on it. Sort of a delegated job i.e. call a diplomat.


Probably more Innominate's job.

<< OOC: Totally agree there, not suggesting otherwise. Just to have it said. >>
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2016-12-27 15:15:28 UTC
On the subject of NullSec alliances.

We all witnessed a very large interstellar war this year. "World War Bee" as some call it, resulted in a great upheaval in Nullsec. Systems that had known a kind of peace under the rule of the Goons were suddenly ruled by a wide variety of different corporations, each with their own agenda.

The loss of ships and material was staggering.

But for each ship destroyed, each station or planet taken, there are survivors.

Most "refubees" are given the option to continue their lives with their support now going to the new Corporations.

Many however, cannot be used or utilized due to the nature of serving a military machine. What are we to do? Put them in a jetcan and fire them into the nearest star? Waste time and resources and probably lose lives in transporting them back to their Corporation of origin? Imprison them? Imprison millions of them?

And this doesn't even take into account the Serpentis, Guristas and other factions that operate in the North. Recently, over the course of several hours I responded to three different Guristas dreadnoughts which were harassing our mining operations. They would not retreat, they would not surrender so the ships had to be destroyed. The salvage goes to support our new pilots, but what to do with tens of thousands of surviving crew? Again, some decided to join us, others refused.

We could enslave them and force them to toil for us, we don't. Those who are enslaved are sold back to the empires or corporations that hired them. Since CONCORD does not rule NullSec, this is not illegal. We don't make a slave culture like Amarr does and we don't reap profits off of that system like CONCORD and the other Empires do. We turn a quick ISK and continue doing what we need to do to make our stand here.

Slavery is unimportant to NullSec because it does not define us. It just is.

And seriously, these people are alive. Death is an option for them, we just don't take that option.

So again, you don't get to claim the moral high ground when you engage in or take benefit from the system of slavery. Just because I'm not willing to hide what I am and what I do under a veneer of false civility doesn't make you better than me. You ARE me.

I do not say this as a Horde pilot. I do not say this as an Archangel. I say this as a Free Captain who is fighting for a better Galaxy. But if I'm going to fight for a better Galaxy, it has to be one worth living in, without the lies and corruption of CONCORD and your petty governments.

You don't like slavery? Don't do it. You don't like the system? Change it.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

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