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A Brief Note on the Theology Council Edict on Souls of Clones.

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#121 - 2016-12-27 15:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
You ARE me.

No, I'm really not.

... though apparently I am someone who needs to be more careful who she takes a liking to.

Quote:
But if I'm going to fight for a better Galaxy, it has to be one worth living in, without the lies and corruption of CONCORD and your petty governments.

There's nothing petty about any society that spans multiple star systems. The sheer problem of keeping that many apes living more or less peacefully with each other-- and, better still, in a society all built, run, and maintained by some of those same apes...!

There's also usually a lot of awfulness to such a society. Civilization's not to be despised just because of its hypocrisies, though. A civilization is a masterwork of sociological jerry-rigging. The only exception I know of is Sansha's Nation-- and that's just because the jerry-rigging they do is neurological, instead, and hidden inside unlucky people's skulls.

Of course civilization's ugly. That doesn't make it worse than the alternatives.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#122 - 2016-12-27 16:40:51 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
I say this as a Free Captain who is fighting for a better Galaxy.


Hahaha.
Mercenary Coalition
#123 - 2016-12-27 16:48:07 UTC
Eh, given the Free Captains I used to know had a lovey dovey relationship with a certain Blooder egomaniac, using much the same rationale, it's not something to laugh about much. He's pretty much embodying the darkest parts of Star Fraction without the good bits to balance things out.
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2016-12-27 17:13:44 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

And this doesn't even take into account the Serpentis, Guristas and other factions that operate in the North. Recently, over the course of several hours I responded to three different Guristas dreadnoughts which were harassing our mining operations. They would not retreat, they would not surrender so the ships had to be destroyed. The salvage goes to support our new pilots, but what to do with tens of thousands of surviving crew? Again, some decided to join us, others refused.

We could enslave them and force them to toil for us, we don't. Those who are enslaved are sold back to the empires or corporations that hired them. Since CONCORD does not rule NullSec, this is not illegal. We don't make a slave culture like Amarr does and we don't reap profits off of that system like CONCORD and the other Empires do. We turn a quick ISK and continue doing what we need to do to make our stand here.


Or, you know, you could just let them stand trial for their crimes and then deal with them like any other legitimate governing body does. Or even just not pick them up. Let the ones who make it to life pods get back to their bases. The ones who don't... they weren't getting out anyway. Just a thought.

Also, that 'those who are enslaved are sold back to'... that's really not 'enslaved' so much as 'taken hostage and ransomed'. I think if you said you were involved in ransoming crews, rather than 'enslaving' crews that you then sell back to their employers, people would react a fair bit differently.
#125 - 2016-12-27 17:25:32 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Or even just not pick them up.

Sometimes the greatest kindness we can extend to people is to forget they exist.
Sani-Sabik
#126 - 2016-12-27 17:52:36 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
He's pretty much embodying the darkest parts without the good bits to balance things out.


Remember kids, when you paint black on black, you can't see jack.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Triumvirate.
#127 - 2016-12-27 20:32:56 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
He's pretty much embodying the darkest parts of Star Fraction without the good bits to balance things out.


Star Fraction ever had good things? Our records indicate all they were good for was long rants on this forum.
Mercenary Coalition
#128 - 2016-12-27 21:10:16 UTC
For all their flaws, it'd be disingenuous to discount what they did successfully have an effect on. You also need to keep in mind that those early days were very different days in terms of scale and capsuleer power.
Pandemic Legion
#129 - 2016-12-27 22:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
On the subject of NullSec alliances.

We all witnessed a very large interstellar war this year. "World War Bee" as some call it, resulted in a great upheaval in Nullsec. Systems that had known a kind of peace under the rule of the Goons were suddenly ruled by a wide variety of different corporations, each with their own agenda.

The loss of ships and material was staggering.

But for each ship destroyed, each station or planet taken, there are survivors.

Most "refubees" are given the option to continue their lives with their support now going to the new Corporations.

Many however, cannot be used or utilized due to the nature of serving a military machine. What are we to do? Put them in a jetcan and fire them into the nearest star? Waste time and resources and probably lose lives in transporting them back to their Corporation of origin? Imprison them? Imprison millions of them?
During WWB I tied with two others as the highest payed non-FC's, meaning myself and those other two pilots were recognized as having done the most work when it came to physically taking the space. We took planets and star systems in a variety of ways but the handling of refugees was done exactly the same across the theatre.

We left them alone. If they stayed on their planets and orbitals, great. They were the problem of the alliances who took over the space. If they had the money to evacuate to Saranen, they probably did. Maybe some random corp or alliance involved decided they wanted to pay for refugees to get to Saranen but I am not aware of any who did. I am certain there are thousands or millions of people who lived and worked under the former Imperium who eventually migrated to Delve. I am not sure how many were sponsored or moved by the Imperium itself, you would have to ask Arrendis or another member of the Imperium. As for what percent stayed and how many were killed you will have to go to the scope for those statistics.

Who is going to spend the resources to lift people off a planet or an orbital just to execute them in space? Anyone who needed executing was probably shot already by the time pilots were moving into the systems we took. It is not like we went and invaded with kind words. The cities and nations of the Imperium did not just decided to change flags overnight. The exception would be the idiotic trials Darkness and TEST held for former Imperium administrators but I had nothing to do with that except for the physical breaking of the defenses in the space.

I just want to point out my personal experience in this before I tell you that your straw man argument about jet cans and enslavement is stupid. You are throwing up noise about a war that took place months ago and the other side of New Eden and has absolutely nothing to do with you directly selling slaves to Nauplius.
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
So again, you don't get to claim the moral high ground when you engage in or take benefit from the system of slavery. Just because I'm not willing to hide what I am and what I do under a veneer of false civility doesn't make you better than me. You ARE me.

I do not say this as a Horde pilot. I do not say this as an Archangel. I say this as a Free Captain who is fighting for a better Galaxy. But if I'm going to fight for a better Galaxy, it has to be one worth living in, without the lies and corruption of CONCORD and your petty governments.

You don't like slavery? Don't do it. You don't like the system? Change it.

The system of slavery that benefits the Amarrian Empire has rules which you are breaking. You are shooting yourself in the foot by pointing out that slavery is a working system because your actions are specifically outside that system

And is it just me or does almost every time someone call themselves a free captain they turn out to be an idiot? I was not around in those days but the people who still bring that up are almost unanimously poorly adjusted in my experience.

Probably that those who identify themselves as a past title tend to be less well adjusted and not to blame on the common organization they shared.

As strength goes.

#130 - 2016-12-27 22:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunarisse Aspenstar
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Triumvirate.
#131 - 2016-12-27 23:00:22 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Or even just not pick them up.

Sometimes the greatest kindness we can extend to people is to forget they exist.


Or to put them out of their misery.
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2016-12-27 23:25:24 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
I am not sure how many were sponsored or moved by the Imperium itself, you would have to ask Arrendis or another member of the Imperium.


Anyone who was able to make it to Saranen, Torrinos, or Taisy before the convoys left had space found for them on those convoys. Anyone who made it out after and sent word should have been seen to—funds transferred to arrange transit to Amarr, and from there, baseliner shuttle service in through Aridia.
Pandemic Legion
#133 - 2016-12-27 23:41:39 UTC
Which is no less than I expected, gsf has always had the gold standard of social services.

Sinjin is just bringing up the war to try and distract from what he did.

As strength goes.

Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2016-12-27 23:44:19 UTC
Well, he's been insisting the crews he's selling are 'Goons'. Which means he's been holding them for 4+ months now, or he's claiming to have been hunting Zungen and Dagrid Boat. Even those would be reaching back a fair bit now. Maybe Stunt's back up in that neck of the woods again? I don't keep track of where he goes.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#135 - 2016-12-28 00:22:16 UTC
I cannot believe I actually skimmed through this thread past the Lord Admiral's initial post. I'm not sure what I expected.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of House Sarum

#136 - 2016-12-28 01:00:12 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

Well, since the condition cited was 'practical immortality', not 'actual immortality', that's not quite relevant. Besides, I don't think anyone's been a clone until the heat death of the universe yet, so we can't actually establish 'existence with no end to it'. Not that capsuleers have that, either: turn off the clone beds, and we're done. It's more a perception of immortality that's in question.

Except practical immortality means indefinite continuation of oneself, what you are calling actual immortality is - permanent immortality. It is also good to keep in mind that there is actual biological immortality which is applied to cells that can divide without DNA damage, this particular definition doesn't mean they can not ceases to exist by means of injury or outside damage, but they can "dodge" the senescence.

In case of clone beds and capsuleer immortality we are talking about indefinite continuation when certain conditions are met. So it still fits.

Arrendis wrote:

Well, that's lovely and all, but science—including medical science—doesn't care what we consider something, it only cares what the data says, and we haven't even begun collecting that data, so making authoritative statements is pretty useless.

You jump to strange and premature conclusion. It wasn't an authoritative statement it was an educated guess, just as one you made about potential longevity. Also we are not involved in scientific process here, only in some of it parts like theorizing based on previous observations. For the most part we are just conversing and exchanging ideas.

Arrendis wrote:

I'd say rather that the identity of 'Arrendis Culome' approaches immortality—as it exists in the minds of others. It's the perceived presence of Arrendis Culome that persists, not the continuity of any internal existence. You might as well say that 'Punisher-class hulls are immortal' because if you blow one up, it can be reproduced exactly, right down to the dents and scratches, as long as they were measured. It's only the biochemical bits—the crew, as analagous to the capsuleer's body—that's killed. That's what we are: we're reproductions. We're incredible forgeries of a dead person who, in most of our cases, was also a forgery.

How well does your assertion of immortality hold up in the face of evidence like Aria Jenneth, for example?

Yeap, that one in particular is virtual immortality (not digital, but virtual as existing in the minds of others). The problem with that one is that we are not talking about entity that is Arrendis Culome, but about perception of others what Arrendis Culome was when they interacted with it. As it always with perceptions they vary from person to person and will differ drastically. Fun fact about this definition is that it is mentioned in the Scriptures, achieving immortality through deeds.

I might say that punisher-class hull is immortal if punisher-class hull will become a being, but it is an inanimate object.

What about Aria Jenneth? If you mean her amnesia, then that doesn't make her less of an immortal it just makes her a one with impairment - a damaged immortal.

Arrendis wrote:

Morality is subjective. Morality is the law of a ruling body—just a very large, diffuse one called 'society'. For example: Some societies consider enslaving others in order to forcibly insert their culture and spiritual beliefs into those people to be a moral action.

Some consider it cultural—well, I don't think I have to provide the label for sticking yourself into someone else without consent, do I?

Morality that is synonym to goodness, righteousness, virtuousness. It is universal, what isn't is how it is achieved and depends on personal ethos or multitudes of which that person consider him/her self a part of.
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2016-12-28 02:21:11 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Except practical immortality means indefinite continuation of oneself, what you are calling actual immortality is - permanent immortality. It is also good to keep in mind that there is actual biological immortality which is applied to cells that can divide without DNA damage, this particular definition doesn't mean they can not ceases to exist by means of injury or outside damage, but they can "dodge" the senescence.

In case of clone beds and capsuleer immortality we are talking about indefinite continuation when certain conditions are met. So it still fits.


'when certain conditions are met'. We have no assurances that these conditions will continue to be met next month. CONCORD could shut the whole thing down. So is it the cloning, or the perception of immortality?

Quote:

Yeap, that one in particular is virtual immortality (not digital, but virtual as existing in the minds of others). The problem with that one is that we are not talking about entity that is Arrendis Culome, but about perception of others what Arrendis Culome was when they interacted with it. As it always with perceptions they vary from person to person and will differ drastically. Fun fact about this definition is that it is mentioned in the Scriptures, achieving immortality through deeds.


HOOOOLD UP. No.

If we're talking about a capsuleer going megalomaniacal and/or sociopathic because they believe themselves to be immortal (which is what was being discussed) then we're not talking about the perception of others as a criterion for 'practical immortality'. Can't have it both ways there.

Quote:

What about Aria Jenneth? If you mean her amnesia, then that doesn't make her less of an immortal it just makes her a one with impairment - a damaged immortal.


Except that you've been arguing that it's the continued existence of the identity that makes for immortality. She's not who she was.

Quote:

Morality that is synonym to goodness, righteousness, virtuousness. It is universal, what isn't is how it is achieved and depends on personal ethos or multitudes of which that person consider him/her self a part of.


And I put it to you that 'goodness', 'righteousness', 'virtuousness', these are all culturally subjective. Enslaving the Minmatar people in order to Reclaim them to the Amarr god was considered all three of those things by the Amarr. It's still considered an evil, and a violation, and cultural **** in other places.

It's great to have a catch-all label like 'goodness' that you can tell yourself is universal, but can you define 'goodness'? Can you define it in any way that is not subjective?
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2016-12-28 02:22:38 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
I cannot believe I actually skimmed through this thread past the Lord Admiral's initial post. I'm not sure what I expected.


Less cake, more PIE? Cool
#139 - 2016-12-28 20:06:07 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
How well does your assertion of immortality hold up in the face of evidence like Aria Jenneth, for example?

What about Aria Jenneth? If you mean her amnesia, then that doesn't make her less of an immortal it just makes her a one with impairment - a damaged immortal.

Except that you've been arguing that it's the continued existence of the identity that makes for immortality. She's not who she was.

Can I just mention that I don't think recovering a bunch of damaging memories would count as a "repair"?

I don't remember Father beating Mother to death; I don't remember the SuVee creche; I don't remember being an permanent unwelcome guest in Grandfather's house; I don't remember growing up half-Civire in rural Achura or the probably thousands of little awfulnesses that must have involved; I don't remember attending academy to prove I wasn't worthless; and I don't remember snapping Grandfather's neck in a fit of rage or disemboweling my cousin in a duel.

In some sense, yes, that's the person I am. Same basic infomorph, same genes, same functional knowledge; just, somebody burned the historical archives down to the foundations.

In another sense, the person with those memories is a really unhappy person. Maybe I shouldn't be forgiven my past just because I can't remember it anymore, but, knowing that it's hard to draw a hard, principled line between her and me doesn't make me want to be her.
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