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Assault Frigates. I just don't get 'em.

Author
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-12-22 22:19:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!


They did, it was horribly broken.


How about AFs had an omnitank 77% for shields and 82% for armor and was unable to fit any resist module both for armor and shield? The only tank they could use is a damage control.
They sure need something unique to get back in the field.
#22 - 2016-12-23 04:18:12 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!


They did, it was horribly broken.


How about AFs had an omnitank 77% for shields and 82% for armor and was unable to fit any resist module both for armor and shield? The only tank they could use is a damage control.
They sure need something unique to get back in the field.


Then everyone would hull-tank for an additional 60% flat resist to structure.

Keep thinking, there's gotta be something special for these ships...

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Ruchy Industrial Groups
#23 - 2016-12-23 09:34:12 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.

Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again.



A cheap easy to kill frigate isn't more fun than an expensive easy to kill frigate. They are already cheap in both skill points and isk. Your idea would solve little. They need to be able to have a decent win ratio to be fun.



I agree that cost-wise they just aren't worth it. They have the flexibility for people to really play with them & learn some stuff, but at 30m a pop that's not very useful.

You need deep pockets to be able to throw away 40m 'kitted out', and many experienced players do forget that one.

Yeah, I can see 'hook' as being a use for them. They are just a 'heavy frigate' after all. They are genuinely nothing special for Fleet Action ( unlike Bombers & 'Ceptors ).



40 mil is chump change for pvp, so I'm not getting it for the pvp aspect. For pve it's not like you're going to lose the ship anyway so I don't get it there either. The price is fine and the skill requirements are fine. It's not about being an older rich player and forgetting. If you can't afford a 40 mil AF loss, then pvp probably isn't for you. I've said variations of this in different situations, but seriously - How many folks will pvp in a 30 mil AF that won't pvp in a 40 mil AF? I don't think it's that big of a number.

The pvp draw isn't vast riches. It's the excitement and so many other non isk things. I'll never agree that making a pvp ship cheaper will pull more guys into the fold.



I have 7m PvP boats that are as fast as a 'Ceptor ( but not immune to Bubbles, obviously ). I think you're forgetting...

Just my tuppence.
Ruchy Industrial Groups
#24 - 2016-12-23 09:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizzie Haslack
Orakkus wrote:
Assault Frigs have always had a bad time fitting in. Their original role was as a small gang, fast moving, strike ship. When they were first released they had an okay tank, but were pretty expensive. Cruisers could essentially do the same things for cheaper less isk, and with a better tank. It always seems that with each developer pass, they are too expensive for what they do, or not tanky enough, or is outclassed by an already existing or newly released ship type.

I had hoped that when they applied changes to warp speed that these ships might fit into a niche a little better, but that still isn't happening.

What they really need is a long term "think" on their roles.. and maybe even a reduction of ships from two down to one per race to make it easier to balance out. Personally, I think the AFs should have been the ones with the warp bubble nullification, instead of the ceptors. That would have made AFs more of a niche ship, but since they are slower and less manuverable than Ceptors it would be easier to catch them in a well run gate camp.



If the AF was a T1 that would help A LOT. You'd still need the Assault Frigate skill to fly it, but cost-wise it would be saner for the lack of Va-va-voom they have. It's just a Heavy Frigate after all. It has no 'superpower'.

That could be it's Special Power. That much variability, and it's not financially crippling to lose so often ( they are regularly out-classed after all ).

A simple fix might just save it.


I have builds that fly as fast as a AF, and have almost as much tank, and they only cost 4m ( T1 ). So why even get into an AF, unless you are space-happy rich?


Or...


Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff. Much as we can't steal Star Wars stuff directly we can be inspired by them.

It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bomber, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).



#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too.
Ruchy Industrial Groups
#25 - 2016-12-23 10:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizzie Haslack
Gizzie Haslack wrote:



Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff. Much as we can't steal Star Wars stuff directly we can be inspired by them.

It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bomber, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).



#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too.



Taking it further. Why have just 2 AF's per race? Normal Friggies get 4-5 roles per race after all. I can see 3-4 major rolls for Heavy Frigates here:

1) Old Skool Bomber ( 2 Bomb Bays ) with a couple of Size S guns.

2) Torpedo Boat ( 2 launchers allowed ) with a couple of Size S guns.

3) 4 Size M guns. A proper 'blockade-buster' Frigate. Small, with some beefy punch to it.

4) Heavy Logi Frigate. With extra power conduits to cover the sizeable Cap drain Logi stuff can do.


With the extra slots ( 4 mid & 4 low typically ) for either shield or armour tanking.


Now *that's* a boat or 2 worth 25m plus fit.
The-Culture
#26 - 2016-12-23 10:58:02 UTC
I'll admit they do need some love, despite being some of my favorite ships in the game.
Someone a while back suggested maybe giving them resistance to energy neutralizers/vamps... I like that, but I doubt it'll happen.
I think someone else mentioned the idea of making their MWD's immune to the shut down effect from scrams, also an attractive idea, albeit potentially overbalanced.

Either way, CCP does need to do something for them... even if that something is a savage nerfing of T3D's.

That said, I'mma never stop flying my Ishkur. No other frigate I've flown has allowed me to melt the face off of a dessie with my drones without pausing in badtouching to death the battleship of some hapless mission runner.
The small sig radius coupled with the high resist profile and fairly 'decent' speed allows them to survive rather well in high level mission pockets, often allowing you to tank not only the mission runner, but the entire pocket as well simultaneously.

Granted, my use of them is very niche and as such should not be a metric for their overall application.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2016-12-23 12:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.
#28 - 2016-12-23 12:08:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!


They did, it was horribly broken.




I'm not sure what you are talking about. When did AF have an AB bonus???


If they did I'm pretty sure I would have been enyo-face and loving it.


#29 - 2016-12-23 12:23:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.



I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice.


As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem.

I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM.

Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken)
Dram
Falcon
Ishtar
Orthrus
T3 cruiser (tanks)
T3 dessy
Moros
Tracking titans
Mym/Drake (tanks)
Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....)

I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list.
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2016-12-23 12:35:08 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!


They did, it was horribly broken.




I'm not sure what you are talking about. When did AF have an AB bonus???


If they did I'm pretty sure I would have been enyo-face and loving it.



It was the first plan back when they got teiricide. Everyone quickly agreed it was a bad idea so it got shelved.
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2016-12-23 12:38:11 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.



I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice.


As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem.

I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM.

Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken)
Dram
Falcon
Ishtar
Orthrus
T3 cruiser (tanks)
T3 dessy
Moros
Tracking titans
Mym/Drake (tanks)
Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....)

I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list.


Duel masb hawk, the ishkur was also heavily bitched about.
#32 - 2016-12-23 12:51:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.



I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice.


As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem.

I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM.

Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken)
Dram
Falcon
Ishtar
Orthrus
T3 cruiser (tanks)
T3 dessy
Moros
Tracking titans
Mym/Drake (tanks)
Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....)

I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list.


Duel masb hawk, the ishkur was also heavily bitched about.

Don't forget the Ibis. Those things are EVERYWHERE. Plus they jumped in popularity after the latest AT tournament where one of them jammed out a Vindicator.
RvB - RED Federation
#33 - 2016-12-25 13:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Gizzie Haslack wrote:


Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff. Much as we can't steal Star Wars stuff directly we can be inspired by them.

It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bomber, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).



#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too.


That sounds overpowered as hell.
How about they go the other way around and make AFs dedicated anti-bomber units?
With a role bonus that allows them to both detect and target cloaked ships... Not sure if this is possible as far as game mechanics are concerned, and we would miss out on a lot of delcious whine threads about afk cloakers...

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

The Initiative.
#34 - 2016-12-25 14:11:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.



AFs weren't exactly popular before T3Ds were introduced. Nerfing Jackdaws won't make Hawks popular, because RLML caracals, not to mention Storks will still exist, not to mention Talwars.
When you're contemplating making essentially all of the small and medium ship range worse to try and make one class popular again, then maybe, just maaaaaaaaaaybe, it's time to consider applying a positive incentive to fly AFs instead of punishing people for not flying them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2016-12-27 19:03:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.

T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.



AFs weren't exactly popular before T3Ds were introduced. Nerfing Jackdaws won't make Hawks popular, because RLML caracals, not to mention Storks will still exist, not to mention Talwars.
When you're contemplating making essentially all of the small and medium ship range worse to try and make one class popular again, then maybe, just maaaaaaaaaaybe, it's time to consider applying a positive incentive to fly AFs instead of punishing people for not flying them.



Oh it's not just one ship class I'm thinking of there, it's everything from the stabber down. I have a deep seated dislike for t3s.
Black Thorne Alliance
#36 - 2016-12-27 21:24:44 UTC
On another thread discussing this, I think the best suggestion put forward for fixing AFs was to give them a bonus for Overheating, and base a lot of their niche functionality around that:
-Faster in-space module repair
-either increased Overheat module bonus or decreased Overheat damage.

By implementing this, it could potentially allow AF to temporarily out perform much of their competition on speed, damage and/or tank, if only for a limited time.
Executive Outcomes
#37 - 2016-12-29 16:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaric Faelen
I don't agree with either making them a T1 ship nor giving them bombs/torpedoes.....we have ship lines for that already.

AFs need a whole new role, not just variations on already existing roles.

Say no to ship tiers:
Making them T1 just obsoletes all other T1 combat frigs. If they are just upgrades to tank/DPS, they immediately obsolete the other T1 frigs, hence the reason they are T2. The whole point of them being an upgraded version of a frigate was increased skill investment and cost.
We already had 'tiers' in the ship lines and spent several expansions getting rid of those tiers.

Bombs are already situational, and pretty much rely on cloaking to get into position. Just adding a second bomb launcher to an AF won't make it any more viable or useful than something with a CovOps cloak to go with it. Also, individual bombers are basically worthless in combat, so you'd essentially be relegating the AF to a fleet ship with virtually no use to the individual or solo player. At least a solo bomber can scout cloaked and light covert cynos.

Straight upgrades to tank/DPS isn't a fleet 'role' per se, and brings a bunch of balance issues about. The time/cost sink must be sufficient to separate them from T1 ships, but must not be so powerful that it infringes on the next class of ship. AFs violate all of that. They are a time/cost sink over T1, but not worth it compared to the next ship class, Destroyers. The T3D s especially did even more to damage the AF class.
This is why I advocate for an entirely new role for AFs (and change HACs to follow suit). It's the nature of the role the ship plays that is the problem here, and upgraded tank/DPS as a role, fails.
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