EVE General Discussion

 
 

Is MTU killing harrasment?

Author
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#81 - 2016-12-31 10:59:06 UTC
I guess there are all types.
I've learned to not take things too seriously, so name calling and abuse aren't really my thing.
It just seems a bit lacking in class.
There are plenty of wary bears out there who keep their MTU's next to them, and this is smart. I still try, just to make sure they're paying attention, also because it often results in social interaction.

The neutral logi thing I wouldn't consider to be too much of an issue, well at least I don't bother.
It's perceived as something of a boogeyman by many, and I understand the apprehension.
Truth is though that oftentimes that neutral logi is a LOT easier to kill than the ship it's repping, particularly if the primary is a frigate. Just switch targets to the newly suspect repping ship and maybe give a shout out in local/corp/alliance for a hand.
If it's a densely populated system and you're in good standing with the locals you can often get a volunteer to help deal with a pesky nogoodnik.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Caldari State
#82 - 2016-12-31 19:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Five pages to answer a simple question. Most of it quite rude (directly or indirectly) towards the OP, whose only crime is being new to the game.

Why?

The most consistent impression this whole forum gives is that new players are expected to spend a lot of their personal time entertaining experienced players who enjoy wasting other peoples time.

And despite the ISK-income levels of high-SP players, they're too cheap to pay (in ISK) for the time they waste. A high-SP player could easily get a rookie to face them repeatedly in a starter ship for a few tens of million ISK per hour. It would greatly simplify the whole process, the way BDSM clubs achieve the same thing IRL.
Of course since every new player is quickly taught that dishonesty is the best policy, payment would have to be by the starter ship rather than by the hour, but I don't see that being a real constraint /lol.

And since I'm sure to hear how the majority of griefers are kind and helpful at heart, and how likely they are to pay for destroyed ships as long as you grovel to them afterwards in a convo ... nice people would leave their targets at 25% hull and then start an instructive chat /lol.
#83 - 2016-12-31 21:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Antagonising your opponent is an essential characteristic of PvP.
Antagonistic behavior ≠ harassment
Harassment has a specific meaning and the behavior described has absolutely no place here.


Antagonism and harassment are rather the same thing. Which is to say that when someone is being harassed, they are being effectively and disruptively engaged in combat. This is the normal dictionary definition of the word.

What I am saying is that such behaviours do qualify as harassment according to the dictionary definition of the word. Considering that this game is a combat simulator, and harassment is an element of combat, it is infact entirely permissible and is not at all out of place. If you are seeking to apply some other definition, then perhaps this clarification should be provided by the questioner.
#84 - 2016-12-31 22:32:08 UTC
OP, - An actual answer to your question is murky.

However there's a good reason beyond simply isk generation / pvp aggression Mission completion items (re: Damsel & co.) end up on contracts. And just as equally focused/targeted and continued bumping of (typically) single miners beyond the confines of one solar system/constellation is a bit grey.

In any case, if the PVP instigator / culprit in your site doesn't offer you a contract for the item, file a petition

As for MTU popping? Presume it par for the course/ignore. You didn't actually need that generic mtu gathered loot/salvage anyway.
#85 - 2017-01-01 00:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jax Bederen
Akis Talanas wrote:
Just a simple question because i find it surely is....

And what about stealing the mission related item?
Both are not "PVP actions" they are just intended to ruin the mission for the missionrunner....and this is no pvp
Sure one can "rebuy" the mission critical object....even in space from the thief....

But this is one of the things that really goes to far in my eyes and should be banned.....

And killing a mtu?
I mean...why?
Just because you can?
Great reasoning.....at least wait if someone picks it up......

Both actions are -as said- no pvp and should stop because there is no other sense in it than the pure definition of harrasment.....


Why did you even bother posting this, most players left in this game are the types to do this, it's a more homogenic pool then four years ago, not sure what sort of answers you expected. Besides it's not the end of the world, best thing to do is to ignore them as they sit there looking creepy with anticipation while you fly off. Really I dont think it bothers anyone much other then new players. Looking at you bio you might be one of those, well, welcome to eve!
Caldari State
#86 - 2017-01-06 20:36:03 UTC
Unlike most games EVE seems to encourage the a-hole aggressor, in fact, the game panders to them.


It is of course harassment, but the devs do not agree, they seem to encourage it.
I think pandering to this element is a dumb move, I'd look to attract a wider demographic - but EVE's doing alright so what do I know.

You have 3 options in EVE:

1. Be an a-hole and harass people.
2. Be a glorified drone in some mega-nerd's "fleet"
3. Find some friends and Just try to ignore the a-holes and do your own thing. The game is pretty fun in spite of the trolls.
Caldari State
#87 - 2017-01-06 21:08:38 UTC
It's not like I haven't seen this thread thousands of time in the years I've been reading the forums, but they still make me sad. If people can't deal with minor (and totally predictable) interference in a video game, how in hell do they deal with the harsh realities of real life?
CODE.
#88 - 2017-01-06 21:53:08 UTC
Motoko Kashada wrote:
Unlike most games EVE seems to encourage the a-hole aggressor, in fact, the game panders to them.


It is of course harassment, but the devs do not agree, they seem to encourage it.
I think pandering to this element is a dumb move, I'd look to attract a wider demographic - but EVE's doing alright so what do I know.

You have 3 options in EVE:

1. Be an a-hole and harass people.
2. Be a glorified drone in some mega-nerd's "fleet"
3. Find some friends and Just try to ignore the a-holes and do your own thing. The game is pretty fun in spite of the trolls.


Dear Miss Kashada, for someone who claims EVE Online is 'pretty fun in spite of the trolls', you don't seem able to communicate that sense of enjoyment very satisfactorily. In fact, your post is quite tearful in its tone.

This view of mine is ably demonstrated by the order of the options you cite as being available to the OP; you place your own happy solution last on the list instead of trumpeting it in pole-position. An odd way to make a recommendation, I think.
#89 - 2017-01-06 22:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Motoko Kashada wrote:
Unlike most games EVE seems to encourage the a-hole aggressor, in fact, the game panders to them.
Yes Eve does pander to aggressive gamers, which is why it's outlived a very large percentage of its contemporaries, as well as many MMO's that came after it.

Quote:
It is of course harassment, but the devs do not agree, they seem to encourage it.
If the devs say it's not harassment, it's not harassment. In the Eve universe their word is the only one that counts when it comes down to what is allowed and what is not.

Quote:
I think pandering to this element is a dumb move, I'd look to attract a wider demographic - but EVE's doing alright so what do I know.
Like Jon Snow, you know nothing. Eve is a niche game, niches are a very small percentage of the market because they are by design meant to appeal to a small subset of gamers, not gamers in general. While CCP are widening their target audience with Alpha clones it will remain a niche game because of the nature of the game.

Quote:
You have 3 options in EVE:

1. Be an a-hole and harass people.
2. Be a glorified drone in some mega-nerd's "fleet"
3. Find some friends and Just try to ignore the a-holes and do your own thing. The game is pretty fun in spite of the trolls.
Yeah... but no.

While you're welcome to your opinion, the people you label as a-holes are usually anything but; the ones that spew forth hate and such tend to be those who follow the more peaceful professions and find the act of exploding their ship to be abhorrent, even though it's a PvP game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Amarr Empire
#90 - 2017-01-06 22:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Akis Talanas wrote:
Just a simple question because i find it surely is....

And what about stealing the mission related item?
Both are not "PVP actions" they are just intended to ruin the mission for the missionrunner....and this is no pvp
Sure one can "rebuy" the mission critical object....even in space from the thief....

But this is one of the things that really goes to far in my eyes and should be banned.....

And killing a mtu?
I mean...why?
Just because you can?
Great reasoning.....at least wait if someone picks it up......

Both actions are -as said- no pvp and should stop because there is no other sense in it than the pure definition of harrasment.....



What is rightly considered as griefing and harrassment by standard online gamers, is deemed as being PvP by the denizens of New Eden


People usually play a role in roleplaying games, and as they're games, play pretend and suspension of disbelief should be automatic. Ideally, IRL whims should be irrelevant.

However, people playing EvE are really playing each other and trying to harvest Schadenfreude, so what makes absolutely zero sense In the context of New Eden (stealing mission related items -which almost never sell, apart from epic arcs-, and blowing up MTUs for no reason), makes complete sense in the meta context: those players only feel themselves alive and can only have fun in this game if they can feel some random joe has been raging because of their actions over the internet.


Your best option is to quit and maybe comeback once the swamp has bee drained... if ever

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#91 - 2017-01-06 22:51:10 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
people playing EvE are really playing each other

+5 Points for observation
Quote:
and trying to harvest Schadenfreude

-5 for enterpretation

The Schadenfreude is a nice bonus when you lose your **** over a video game.

It's like watching your smug mate go red in the face when you beat him in poker, you were playing for the chips,
The embarrassed glow is just the Cherry ontop.
#92 - 2017-01-06 23:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
What is rightly considered as griefing and harrassment by standard online gamers, is deemed as being PvP by the denizens of New Eden
It's deemed to be normal PvP game-play by CCP too, the game is designed around other people being able to ruin your day, wherever you are.

If people can't deal with that aspect of the game then there are 1000's of games where the actions considered to be normal game-play in Eve are frowned upon.

Quote:
People usually play a role in roleplaying games, and as they're games, play pretend and suspension of disbelief should be automatic. Ideally, IRL whims should be irrelevant.

However, people playing EvE are really playing each other and trying to harvest Schadenfreude, so what makes absolutely zero sense In the context of New Eden (stealing mission related items -which almost never sell, apart from epic arcs-, and blowing up MTUs for no reason), makes complete sense in the meta context: those players only feel themselves alive and can only have fun in this game if they can feel some random joe has been raging because of their actions over the internet.
Playing against each other is kind of the point of a multiplayer PvP game Roll

Most games don't allow you to role play as the bad guy, Eve does; it also allows you to play the good guy as well as infinite shades of grey between the two. Eve is a competitive PvP game where 90% of the content is created by players trying to get one over on each other, not some themepark MMO where the devs feed you content and give you cookies.

Quote:
Your best option is to quit and maybe comeback once the swamp has bee drained... if ever
I suggest that you take your own advice, CCP have had over a decade to drain the swamp but they haven't yet and hopefully never will; with the original devs being so called "griefers" from Ultima Online, that indulged in similar activities there, that's no surprise.

Be careful what you wish for, if CCP doesn't cater to their current demographic, imagine the mayhem that they'd cause in the more mainstream games, despite the rules.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Amarr Empire
#93 - 2017-01-06 23:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Oh you're right Ralph King-Griffin, Schadenfreude is just icing on top, that's really congruent with people proudly presenting themselves as tear harvesters and having refined the art of making people rage

-1488 for being a disingenuous lolrandum griefer apologist ^^



Jonah, I won't bother responding to your tired psittacism of the age-old pro-griefer arguments. You're probably like our friend Remiel Pollard, who recently had a most excellent meltdown: what you need is help, not spend your life playing tough guy in an online game.
You don't get there's a difference between play pretending pod pilots, and using a game platform as a means to harvest Schadenfreude from random dudes... we get it.


Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Sociopathy is a clinical condition.

Its occurrence in EVE is exclusive to such persons whom suffer from this condition IRL.
It is to be expected, that also in EVE, as IRl, you may encounter a sociopath/psychopath.

However, chances are statistically very, very slim.
Sociopathy/psychopathy has an almost universal rate of below 1% in all populations.
Now divide that by how many of them play EVE.

Ofc it can be argued that EVE, with its unrestricted systems in a virtual/anonymous environment and unusual integration between players and persons, could attract them, but I find that unlikely.

It can also be argued that exactly this unrestricted space, in a virtual/anonymous environment may induce sociopathic/psychopathic behavior, in and of itself. But there is a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. Any number of mutual antagonists have met in person at EVE IRL events, as persons, with no adverse result.

But. It does and has existed in EVE.

The "Bonus Room" debacle of psychological manipulation of victims, as broadcast and recorded for the "enjoyment" of others, carried many indications of sociopathy, as based in the participant individuals themselves, rather that their ingame personas. They deliberately excised and separated the target from the ingame environment, personally, whilst holding their ingame character and their assets, hostage.

I listened to many of these recordings. They where not "EVE", They where for personal pleasure in inducing suffering and duress in a captive target. Leveraging their IRL persona vs their ingame assets (which the antagonists already held). They wanted to induce duress, and hear the IRL person behind the hostage ingame character,suffering.

Its a new and unexplored field, made even more prominent by the proileferation of social media.
Does anonymity, and hence immunity from responsibility, spur sociopathic behavior in individuals otherwise not clinically sociopathic? If so, why? Where is the dividing line between a person themselves, and their assumed alter-ego online?



Sociopathy is not an on/off switch, you're not either 100% sociopath, or not at all

CCP coddles sociopathic tendencies in their game because it sells accounts, to play tricks on others with no fear of retribution as characters of different accounts are unrelated, or to evade said tricks (by scouting mainly, and not putting all eggs in one basket)


This game attracts people too craven IRL to enact their morbid fantasies on others, and who find in New Eden an endless supply of victims they can play with the minds of

The "Bonus Room" stuff was just the epitome of psychological manipulation that goes on through this game, and has come to be its staple and main selling point

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

#94 - 2017-01-06 23:10:49 UTC
/popcorn

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

#95 - 2017-01-06 23:13:18 UTC
Killing space pixels in a game, where the goal is to kill space pixels makes you a sociopath...

More news at eight.
Caldari State
#96 - 2017-01-07 01:18:31 UTC
Too many people seem to view EVE as a fairytale in space where you can find a happy ending of endless isk, exciting content unleashed often, and a big group hug by everyone. They view it as their own personal space utopia. The problem is, eve is a harsh dystopia. This is how the game is built. It is a world where one must survive and carve out their own space. And when this harsh world comes crashing down upon those personal utopias by ganking, scamming, or even killing their MTU, you really have only two options....

One is to whine and complain about how unfair the game is. Your pleas to change the game to make it more fair, more mainstream, more like the utopia you dream of... will fall upon deaf ears. In the end you quit. Eve is not the game for you.

The other option is to rise to the challenge. Learn what you have to do to survive and when you do, take pride in that accomplishment. Then carry it further and learn how not only to survive but strive at your own goals despite the harshness. Then you will find many ways to enjoy EVE.

This is the reality of EVE and why its many vets like the harshness. We are enjoying our struggle to survive. We are enjoy game as it was designed. And this why those calls to change it so often fail to elicit support. We are in because of the challenge of the harsh world, not inspite if it.
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2017-01-07 01:22:10 UTC
^^ Nailed it.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Amarr Empire
#98 - 2017-01-07 02:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:


The other option is to rise to the challenge. Learn what you have to do to survive


This is the only point in your Courage Doggo tirade that makes sense. And once again it's tied to the alts problem, because if you don't have them, you can't proactively counter (by scouting, putting an alt on an acceleration gate, having an ecm frigate at the ready...) what single gankers do with them

"Oh but it's players vs players what difference does it make that I'm getting ganked by 3 alts played by the same person or 3 different persons playing one char?", will be the argument, however dumb it is, as force multiplication by a single individual through the sheer power of investing more RL money in the game is the definition of P2W - not even considering that not everyone can have three screens, and that rules are supposed to be the same for every player: but in New Eden, not having alts is absolutely handicapping-
"you can buy PLEX ingame!" : will say gankers, who hate PvE (or rather, they hate doing it, but they love getting the isk generated through it from people who don't hate doing it^^), so they're telling you "everyone is equal before alt usage since you can grind instead of paying 15 bucks". The hypocrisy, like pottery. And in the end the consensus is "meh idk what kind of sorry azz job you do but I'd rather work an hour of two IRL rather than shoot at rocks or red crosses for 20+".

But all of this is beside the point, as the problem is:
This videogame is made to play pretend pod pilots in spaceships, there is a background -however despised and ridiculed the RPers are-, people enjoy playing games for suspension of disbelief, immersion, that kind of thing
There is a certain crowd (the same that ridicules RPers, and it's not surprising) who only enjoys making people rage, they're not interested in the gameplay itself, only in making people mad. That's why they will exploit every mechanic even if it makes zero sense in the ingame context (ex bumping), and enjoy nothing more than IRL-related interaction: the best case would be Erotica1



It makes no ingame sense to blow up random MTUs or to steal mission items, but it's absolutely efficient IRL, as you're messing with some random dude just because you can, and basically he can't do jack about it... except escalating, but that's what's expected of him

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

#99 - 2017-01-07 02:27:00 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:

Sociopathy is not an on/off switch, you're not either 100% sociopath, or not at all


Every loser in a conflict claims a moral victory and declares the victor flawed.

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
CCP coddles sociopathic tendencies in their game because it sells accounts, to play tricks on others with no fear of retribution as characters of different accounts are unrelated, or to evade said tricks (by scouting mainly, and not putting all eggs in one basket)


"Coddles sociopathic tendencies" no, but tricks are played without fear of retribution, yes. I'm going to get my kids to play when they are older because of the very gentle way Eve teaches real life lessons about such things. Gentle in that, no matter how mad you get, you lost nothing. Everything within the game is CCP's, pixel explosions are part of the fun.

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
This game attracts people too craven IRL to enact their morbid fantasies on others, and who find in New Eden an endless supply of victims they can play with the minds of


OK we're getting hyperbolic here, 'endless' is a bit bombastic. When you notice the cowardly, petty undercurrent everywhere in life you'll relax about people's conduct in video games.

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
The "Bonus Room" stuff was just the epitome of psychological manipulation that goes on through this game, and has come to be its staple and main selling point


The Bonus Room got a person banned and was a lame example of really contrived and mean behaviour. Most people have never heard of it and in no way is it the 'staple selling point' of anything.






Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Army of New Eden
#100 - 2017-01-07 07:04:44 UTC
There's one sentence in eve that is nearly as historic and prolific as "never fly what you can't afford to lose."

And that is:

FIND PVP SOLUTIONS TO PVP PROBLEMS.


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