EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Assault Frigates need a new role determinating role bonus!!!

Author
The-Culture
#81 - 2016-12-23 01:40:10 UTC
I absolutely love assault frigates.
For my non-war related activities in high sec they are well suited to ruining someone else's day.

However, for serious work I just can't usually field one for many of the reasons given earlier in this thread.
They're not fast enough for fast tackle, a ceptor does that better.
Tanking stuff?
I have either a T3, faction or T2 cruiser that I can depend on for that. Damage, same as above.
Hell, the only reason I don't exclusively fly a HAM Legion is that it drives like a school bus.

I would like to see them become more useful in other venues, as they are a great deal of fun to fly.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Pandemic Legion
#82 - 2016-12-23 11:26:17 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Have you actually played in fw space recently? T1 dessies beeing invalidated, are you serious? They are extremely strong. Have you flown AFs in lowsec pre t3ds? They were garbage.


I flew them in null.
RvB - RED Federation
#83 - 2016-12-24 01:41:56 UTC
Fair enough, AFs survived a bit longer in nullsec because dictors there are total shitfit (cause they carry a bubble and arent flying as t2 dessies) and as all fights happen at gates or stations you can get away from kiters - both of which doesnt happen in lowsec. So if anything starts kiting you you are dead. But its still mostly the faction frigs (why ever fly a enyo over a comet), gds (cause op) and dictors to a lesser degree (they are the shipcall t3ds killed, at leats in lowsec) that dominate the small meta.
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2016-12-25 03:07:26 UTC
Jaguar, is great. An AB bonus would be nice, but still they are good. Solo or packs or PvE.

Insane.

Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2016-12-25 19:35:17 UTC
I miss flying assault frigates. I also agree that some kind of EWAR immunity (or at least bonus against) would be a decent addition, perhaps some kind of immunity to neuts.

But the entire role needs to be redefined in my opinion.

A straight upgrade to tank/DPS is a poor 'role' for fleets. It immediately obsoletes anything smaller and infringes on anything larger in class. I'd like to see an entirely new fleet role for the AF to fill.



RvB - RED Federation
#86 - 2016-12-26 00:03:41 UTC
Alaric Faelen wrote:
I miss flying assault frigates. I also agree that some kind of EWAR immunity (or at least bonus against) would be a decent addition, perhaps some kind of immunity to neuts.

But the entire role needs to be redefined in my opinion.

A straight upgrade to tank/DPS is a poor 'role' for fleets. It immediately obsoletes anything smaller and infringes on anything larger in class. I'd like to see an entirely new fleet role for the AF to fill.





Especially because of the constant inflation, a plex used to be 300 million and it was much harder to earn isk, so the difference between 200k and 20million isk for a t1 and t2 frigate actually meant something, nowadays for whatever reason the t2 frigate still is 20 million but isk is so easy to make that there is no real monetary reason to not use t2.
#87 - 2016-12-26 20:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron
Myryaminda wrote:
Hello Everyone.

I am sure everyone will be feeling that Assault Frigates are not really a ship to train in because it's role has been taken over by the T3 destroyers.
As such I think it is time to brainstorm how to make the assault frigate a ship which is a viable option and different from the T3D's.

To calculate why and how it should change we have to look at the T3D's different roles.
The AF used to be the small sniper or assault frigate that had a lot of tank. Both roles have been taken over by the T3D.

Although this is ofcourse a shortcut I think giving all AFs the same role bonus as the interceptor (immunity to interdiction spheres) would make it viable to train in it again.

Please let me know what you think of this idea.


T3Ds and AFs are different. The lower sig radius for AFs makes it harder to hit and the role bonus 50% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty for AFs can assist in keeping sig radius low for when you're fighting a battle cruiser sniper. AFs will always be in a class of their own in my opinion. Nothing needs to change with the AF and it is a good ship to train and pilot.

Train the AF in addition to the T3D.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie

Slightly Sexual
#88 - 2017-01-08 06:16:35 UTC
The best suggestion I've heard for the Assault Frigate question was to make them the 'Masters of Overheating'. More powerful and maybe better sustained overheat capacity in which they compete or perhaps outperform their competition for a limited time.

A possible mechanic to accomplish this could be to allow AFs to enter a ship-wide overheat mode which literally burns and damages the hull on the ship. While in this mode all modules will operate in their overheat range, (with perhaps increased Cap and/or shield Regen), however the individual modules can also be overheated normally, thus allowing a 2X overheat bonus. All this means that these ships would have a limited window in which they are able to perform far beyond their standard. It also opens the door for strategic hull repair to refuel their burn/overheating capacity.

Choosing an Overheating option to fix them (even if it's not my suggested one) means the AF keeps a very Assault-like feel where it can be tanky, fast, and damaging, allows them to be used for various generalized purposes, makes them fun and challenging to pilot, and should not significantly overpower larger hulls that could likely provide better sustain, if less periodic burst capability.
#89 - 2017-01-08 06:21:30 UTC
That's basically increasing stats. Wouldn't it be easier to do it the normal way with slightly improved regular stats?
Slightly Sexual
#90 - 2017-01-08 06:58:49 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
That's basically increasing stats. Wouldn't it be easier to do it the normal way with slightly improved regular stats?


But if you permanently increase speed, damage, tank or utility you walk a very fine line before you simply overpower the other ships around you and hinder their usefulness. Making it a temporary bonus allows a much broader scope of ability you can endow the ship with. And while the temporary bonus of tank, damage and speed may be impressive, I think the utility module bonuses are really what would define this. Webs, Neuts, Scrams, Disruptors, ECM with a 2X overheat could allow these ships to temporarily act almost like role specific ships. This utility could really allow them to make their mark because you never know what their fitted for, or how they will 'Assault' you
Pandemic Legion
#91 - 2017-01-08 11:16:08 UTC
Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights.
#92 - 2017-01-08 21:09:34 UTC
okay I see now. a slight heat bonus would be more of a wildcard because you won't know the person's exact fit (and what modules they'll be overheating).
Slightly Sexual
#93 - 2017-01-08 21:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Deckel
baltec1 wrote:
Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights.


You could add a multiplier effect where the more 2X Overheat module bonuses active the more hull damage gets applied to the ship. This could work by activating the ship overheat mode, then all modules that you set to Overheat the get 2X bonus but for each additional module active the damage doubles. So, 5% for one 10% for two, 20% for 3 etc for every 5 or 10 seconds. This would still keep all overheating dependent upon module heat damage, but allow extra power causing hull damage.
Pandemic Legion
#94 - 2017-01-09 13:05:50 UTC
Deckel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights.


You could add a multiplier effect where the more 2X Overheat module bonuses active the more hull damage gets applied to the ship. This could work by activating the ship overheat mode, then all modules that you set to Overheat the get 2X bonus but for each additional module active the damage doubles. So, 5% for one 10% for two, 20% for 3 etc for every 5 or 10 seconds. This would still keep all overheating dependent upon module heat damage, but allow extra power causing hull damage.


Creative but I worry about some of the stats that this would result in.
Spaceship Bebop
#95 - 2017-01-09 15:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ivona fly
Give them a mad overheat bonus like above, a bit like the DST / Blockade runner

make it a module than burns paste like a mini seige mod and tweak the ammount of charges for balance. could even make it target a specific rack.
Army of New Eden
#96 - 2017-01-09 19:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
I think we all are coming back to the same problem in that it seems that no matter what change you make to the AF, there is always something that is available that does it better, or the change starts to invalidate another class of ships.

If you add more speed, well that intrudes onto the Interceptor role.

If you add more tank, well Cruisers are cheaper and still more effective.

If you add more dps, well Cruisers and now T2/T3 destroyers still are more useful and effective.

If you add more utility, then you could be intruding on the EAFs, Logi frigs, or Command destroyers

The only ships that they seem akin to is the Attack Battlecruisers like the Tornado and the Talos. But there again, you are stuck with a cruiser doing it better, cheaper, and with an easier train. None of the other frigate classes have that issue because their usefulness is combined with speed, small sig, and agility. So you will always have a reason to pick an EAF over a Recon, or a Stealth Bomber over a Cruiser, etc. Even within the subclasses there is sufficient reason to choose on type of interceptor over another.

The only options I see are to either a.) make them more difficult to hit (which seems in line with frigate dynamics) or b.) give them the ability to disrupt the battlefield. Either one of the following I think is probably the best bet:

1. Remove the MWD bonus and replace it with the old AB bonus. I think this is one of the better options, as it gives this ship a role as a brawler in close quarters.

2. Remove the MWD bonus and replace it with a bonus to MJD activation and recharge along with a distance penalty. Basically, a Frigate can activate the jump drive instantly, but can only go half as far. Recharge rate will be quicker too, say 30 to 45 seconds.

3. Ability to mount bombs. This has some creative possibilities

4. Ability to mount one Battleship class smartbomb. This would make it a terror against drones and other frigates.. which would be in line with its existence. The downside would be that it could not be used in close proximity to gates.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

The Initiative.
#97 - 2017-01-09 20:26:16 UTC
Deckel wrote:
The best suggestion I've heard for the Assault Frigate question was to make them the 'Masters of Overheating'. More powerful and maybe better sustained overheat capacity in which they compete or perhaps outperform their competition for a limited time.

A possible mechanic to accomplish this could be to allow AFs to enter a ship-wide overheat mode which literally burns and damages the hull on the ship. While in this mode all modules will operate in their overheat range, (with perhaps increased Cap and/or shield Regen), however the individual modules can also be overheated normally, thus allowing a 2X overheat bonus. All this means that these ships would have a limited window in which they are able to perform far beyond their standard. It also opens the door for strategic hull repair to refuel their burn/overheating capacity.

Choosing an Overheating option to fix them (even if it's not my suggested one) means the AF keeps a very Assault-like feel where it can be tanky, fast, and damaging, allows them to be used for various generalized purposes, makes them fun and challenging to pilot, and should not significantly overpower larger hulls that could likely provide better sustain, if less periodic burst capability.



Overheat bonus is already a feature of T3s.

AFs should have something that's specific to them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

ChaosTheory.
#98 - 2017-01-09 20:34:24 UTC
Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns.

You're welcome. Big smile
Slightly Sexual
#99 - 2017-01-09 20:40:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Overheat bonus is already a feature of T3s.

AFs should have something that's specific to them.


So then another question is, does the Overheat bonus belong on the T3Ds? Also, while the less heat damage that they have is a heating bonus, it is a bonus to sustain, rather than a bonus to projected Max ability and output. There is room for more than one type of heating bonus in the game.
Slightly Sexual
#100 - 2017-01-09 20:49:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns.

You're welcome. Big smile


Personally I think it would have been better if they had taken Destroyers in this route as it would be more in-line with Attack Battlecruisers. Frigs seem like they are too small for that. Besides if you want large guns and max dps in a frig you go Bomber. And even if you did go this way with oversized guns, it would only be a fitting solution for one of the two Assault frigs for each faction. What do you do with the other one?
Forum Jump