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40 days Alpha-Clone review

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#141 - 2017-01-10 15:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Neuntausend wrote:
"If you click this button you may loose a bajillion isk"


No, it is usually "If you click this button you will WIN a bajillion isk". Some people of course make a parody and post in Jita local "ISK halving service, only one true and safe. ISK halving Guaranteed!" In what other game you could get this kind of hilarity?
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2017-01-10 15:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Nana Skalski wrote:
No, it is usually "If you click this button you will WIN a bajillion isk".

I was talking about the citadel courier contract scam in particular, where it literally tells you that you may not be able to dock and complete the contract before you accept it. Yes, the tradehub scamspammers are the other way around. But then it's not even the game telling you this, but just a random player you know nothing about.

Quote:
Some people of course make a parody and post in Jita local "ISK halving service, only one true and safe. ISK halving Guaranteed!" In what other game you could get this kind of hilarity?

Right? I just don't know why anybody would want to destroy that. :(
#143 - 2017-01-10 15:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
In case of citadel courier scams you of course have this window, but that does not guarantee that anybody will read it and understand what can be the meaning of that.
You could make a lengthy explanation window there, but it would be like reading an EULA.

Fact is your choice matters more.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#144 - 2017-01-10 15:21:52 UTC
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
It's not all the same. As an example alternative, you can make a courier contract and then shoot the courier in space. This isn't a matter of making EVE a child's playpen. It's a matter of cleaning up the ways you can betray players.

That is understood. I don't understand why. If you make a contract, and then shoot the courier, then you betray them. If you make a contract, and then shut the doors and prevent him from completing the contract, then you betray them.

They are just different means to the same end. I don't see why one method is apparently ok with you, and the other isn't.


I guess the difference is that you have to risk something if you want to shoot him
- You have to risk that the the courier accepts the contract but delivers it XX hours later when you are maybe offline
- You have to risk that you will be shot down while waiting
- You have to risk, that the courier escapes or takes an unexpected route
- If you want to kill him in highsec you risk the loss of your ship

With the docking scam you have to risk nothing. You wait until the contract is accepeed, press a button and thats it. You can even go offline and wait until the deadline is over.


What if the person docks before accepting the contract?

Isn't that the way to go with this... dock then accept and you get the good deal you were looking for... and you "win" against the scam. Accept and then try to dock... and you "lose" to the scam.


Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2017-01-10 15:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Lena Crews wrote:
What if the person docks before accepting the contract?

Isn't that the way to go with this... dock then accept and you get the good deal you were looking for... and you "win" against the scam. Accept and then try to dock... and you "lose" to the scam.

If the contract *starts* in the scammers citadel, yes. If it starts somewhere else and goes to the citadel, then this wouldn't work. You pick up the cargo (usually something worthless, but since it's packaged you wouldn't even know that you are hauling garbage around), you travel to the destination, and then you notice that you can't dock. But that's where you get the warning popup informing you that you may not be able to dock at the destination before accepting the contract. Some just ignore it ("blahblah weird legal stuff, just click yes") and some take the risk knowingly.
ChaosTheory.
#146 - 2017-01-10 15:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
And why would you give 1/10 for PvP? I only licked it few times and have a lot better impressions as an entitled carebear. There is so much depth to it in all directions and I see you dont even managed to notice you are bad at engaging right targets. I have not seen a fair PvP in any game to date. You always have to deal with what others prepare for you, and you may be sure they will make every effort to have as much advantage over you as they can.


Someone wrote I cant accapt that I got scammed, and thats true. I play MMOs now for nearly 10 years and what you think how often I sold things for 1% of it worth or trashed rare item etc. I had no problems with this because it was always my fault. But in this case I think it was not my fault. I dont care about the ISK its about the principle.


I highlighted your problem. You cannot come into EVE with preconceived notions. This is one of the reasons why people who come to EVE never having played another MMO seem to enjoy it more, they don't have all that "but this should be like that" baggage.

EVE is different from most. EVE isn't a game about spaceship or the future or even War. It's a game about people, and there are only really 2 activities in the game. Learn how to screw over people for gain, and learn how to not be screwed over by other people while you gain.


That's it, that's all you need to know in EVE. I do the latter (the motto of EVE's real PVE community is "getting the loot is PVE, getting away with it is PVP") and because I've accepted that (from day one, almost 10 years ago for me), I actually love the hell out of this game.

You failed the Test in spectacular ways (several tests actually), and now want to complain about it because of a personal principle that does not belong in a game like this. As in most cases, the problem lies with the person playing the game rather than with the game itself.
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2017-01-10 15:41:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
EVE is different from most. EVE isn't a game about spaceship or the future or even War. It's a game about people, and there are only really 2 activities in the game. Learn how to screw over people for gain, and learn how to not be screwed over by other people while you gain.

Nicely put!
#148 - 2017-01-10 15:50:22 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:
Ion Kirst wrote:
Roggo, why are you still here?

You quit, but are so curious about the answers to your whine. Ha, you can't let it go. You've gotten some compassion, and harsh criticism. You even got a rep to reply.

So with all your limited Alpha skills, how could you be really good at anything? You can't, and obviously were weren't.

But somehow, you sure gained the knowledge to do many things in such a short time, and made a lot of isk.

IMO, you are an Alpha made by someone with a Omega account. That's the only answer I can come up with.

-Kirst



I normally play a game called RIFT (for 2,5 years now) You can find me under the name "Roggo" on server Brutwacht. In Nov. Trion published an unfinished expansion, so I decided to have a longer break until christmas time. If they were able to fix the biggest problems I would buy the expansion, if not I woult start to play a new game. In the meanwhile I heared that EVE is f2p now and I just tried it out. But one week ago, I bought the RIFT expansion, so for the next year "I have my game".

After two weeks of playing EVE I decided to make a review, because when I started I missed such a thing to get an impression. I know Iam a bit late, but as I said, I currently spend most of my sparetime in RIFT. And when I open an article, I also spend the time to discuss with the people and share opinions.

If you want you can log in onto Rift (partly f2p) and we can play together.^^ Its funny, in Rift I spend 90% of the time with PvP.^^


Confirming Rift is a panda bear riding, cleavage showing, hello kitty sympathizing, hand holding, rail riding grindy tween fest. I am now un-surprised you did not cut it in EvE.

There isn't enough HTFU to adequately smother this thread Pirate


I'm thinking now, I may have been wrong. The kid actually was an Alpha. He wasn't a ftp character made by an Omega.
Maybe mommy and daddy said for him to try something easier, and they would pay for it if he did. I went to the Rift website to take a look. Will I play? Hell no. IMO, it looks like that game was designed for a "younger" crowd.
EVE is tough, (the forums can be tougher). Rift looks like a "panda bear riding, cleavage show, hand holding, etc " game. Maybe it's a better game for a kid. Those swords look very sharp.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

#149 - 2017-01-10 15:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Nana Skalski wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"If you click this button you may loose a bajillion isk"


"If you click this button you will WIN a bajillion isk"


No, that's the contract scammer button to deny access to the citadel after the contract has been accepted.

And it never loses.

your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic

-Lan Wang-

-

Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:

Amarr Empire
#150 - 2017-01-10 16:05:58 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:
What if the person docks before accepting the contract?

Isn't that the way to go with this... dock then accept and you get the good deal you were looking for... and you "win" against the scam. Accept and then try to dock... and you "lose" to the scam.

If the contract *starts* in the scammers citadel, yes. If it starts somewhere else and goes to the citadel, then this wouldn't work. You pick up the cargo (usually something worthless, but since it's packaged you wouldn't even know that you are hauling garbage around), you travel to the destination, and then you notice that you can't dock. But that's where you get the warning popup informing you that you may not be able to dock at the destination before accepting the contract. Some just ignore it ("blahblah weird legal stuff, just click yes") and some take the risk knowingly.


Having the warning doesn't make it a good mechanic. Especially with the encouragement to use player owned stuff like Azbels, Raitarus to do manufacturing, reprocessing, etc. Encouraging industry in those stations means industrialists need to move their stuff to them. Having it also set up so that any decently paying and/or high collateral delivery to those same stations is going to get viewed as a likely scam is just going to end up annoying for everyone for no benefit to anyone. Scamming should take some effort to earn your profit, not just take pressing one button and logging off. Plus the scammed can't avoid it by being prudent and checking they can dock, they actually need to have a detailed knowledge of how docking rights work, how quickly they can be changed, etc. There's literally nothing they can do other than not take the contract in the first place. Any contract to a player owned complex can see you instantly & unavoidably lose your collateral at the press of a button. It's not good design, it doesn't encourage any interesting gameplay, it's not about taking a calculated risk the way that a scam contract where they intend to kill you en route is.
#151 - 2017-01-10 16:18:16 UTC
I'm going to online my personal citadel in the buttcrack of nowhere and do courier scams hur durr keep the game the way it is because muh gameplay
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2017-01-10 16:20:48 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"If you click this button you may loose a bajillion isk"


"If you click this button you will WIN a bajillion isk"


No, that's the contract scammer button to deny access to the citadel after the contract has been accepted.

And it never loses.


You could check your docking right, light a cyno on an alt, pod express to the station where the contract start, accept it, board a JF, load it, undock, jump to pre-lit cyno and press dock and still be beaten by this scam. If the guy is online, you can't foil him. You can't even hope to beat the clock.
#153 - 2017-01-10 16:22:14 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:
Ion Kirst wrote:
Roggo, why are you still here?

You quit, but are so curious about the answers to your whine. Ha, you can't let it go. You've gotten some compassion, and harsh criticism. You even got a rep to reply.

So with all your limited Alpha skills, how could you be really good at anything? You can't, and obviously were weren't.

But somehow, you sure gained the knowledge to do many things in such a short time, and made a lot of isk.

IMO, you are an Alpha made by someone with a Omega account. That's the only answer I can come up with.

-Kirst



I normally play a game called RIFT (for 2,5 years now) You can find me under the name "Roggo" on server Brutwacht. In Nov. Trion published an unfinished expansion, so I decided to have a longer break until christmas time. If they were able to fix the biggest problems I would buy the expansion, if not I woult start to play a new game. In the meanwhile I heared that EVE is f2p now and I just tried it out. But one week ago, I bought the RIFT expansion, so for the next year "I have my game".

After two weeks of playing EVE I decided to make a review, because when I started I missed such a thing to get an impression. I know Iam a bit late, but as I said, I currently spend most of my sparetime in RIFT. And when I open an article, I also spend the time to discuss with the people and share opinions.

If you want you can log in onto Rift (partly f2p) and we can play together.^^ Its funny, in Rift I spend 90% of the time with PvP.^^


Confirming Rift is a panda bear riding, cleavage showing, hello kitty sympathizing, hand holding, rail riding grindy tween fest. I am now un-surprised you did not cut it in EvE.

There isn't enough HTFU to adequately smother this thread Pirate


I'm thinking now, I may have been wrong. The kid actually was an Alpha. He wasn't a ftp character made by an Omega.
Maybe mommy and daddy said for him to try something easier, and they would pay for it if he did. I went to the Rift website to take a look. Will I play? Hell no. IMO, it looks like that game was designed for a "younger" crowd.
EVE is tough, (the forums can be tougher). Rift looks like a "panda bear riding, cleavage show, hand holding, etc " game. Maybe it's a better game for a kid. Those swords look very sharp.

-Kirst


Your predictions are exatly as wrong as in your first post. So, do you want another try or will you quit your career as diviner?
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2017-01-10 16:49:17 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:

There's a decision to be made: Do we want Ganks? Do we want Highsec Wars? Do we want Scams? If the answer is "no", they should just be prohibited outright. If the answer is "yes", then we should try to keep tinkering with the mechanics involved to a bare minimum.


If the answer is yes (and I think the answer IS yes) then they should be engaging & interesting & mechanically fair. A scam hauling contract to an NPC station is. My freighter pilot takes the contract. I look in the box, see that I've put up 1.5 billion collateral for 20 million tritanium. Freighter sized load I've committed to haul, worth 100 million all up. Am I good enough to still get the stuff delivered? Are the scammers good enough to pop me and get their 1.4 billion profit? That's mechanically fair, that engages both sides, makes us both interested in the outcome, gives both of us a challenge. If I'm better at hauling than they are at hunting down a hauler, I win, I get my 10 million payout and keep my freighter and collateral. If they're better at hunting than I am at hauling, I lose, I'm out 2.5 billion. If I do lose, I know I lost because I was fairly beaten, not because of a stupid mechanic. (Unless I'm beaten by being bumped for 15 minutes until they get enough gankers ready to go, then I've lost to a different stupid mechanic, but that's a different argument.) Risk 2.5 billion to win 10 million for me, risk 10 million to win ~1 billion for them. Calculated, educated, informed risk taken on both sides. It's good that the mechanics allow for it to happen.

If the only challenge is can you notice your contract was taken and hit a button within 15 minutes, and you get your 1.5 billion, that doesn't tick any of the boxes. Engages nobody. Interesting to nobody. Challenging for nobody. Mechanically unfair. It's not bad by virtue of being a scam, it's bad because it's a scam that involves crappy, unengaging gameplay based on abusing a poorly designed mechanic. Same as bumping freighters isn't bad by virtue of being used for ganking, it's bad because it's ganking that involves crappy, unengaging gameplay based on abusing a poorly designed mechanic. It's bad that the mechanics currently allow for this scam to happen.
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2017-01-10 16:51:38 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I'm going to online my personal citadel in the buttcrack of nowhere and do courier scams hur durr keep the game the way it is because muh gameplay


Just wanted to use this opportunity to jump in on the discussion about scamming.

Others have said that EvE is not the usual MMO, in fact, it isn't even the usual game. Most games are based on giving the player rewards for doing well, and cushioning them when they fail. Most games let you respawn after you die, protect you from throwing away everything you own. Eve is not that game.

EvE is a game where success is hard, and failure hurts. This is obviously not going to be everyone's cup of tea. In this game actions have consequences that are felt emotionally. For most of us, it's these emotional moments, good and bad, that we enjoy and that we can't find in other games. If we're all honest, I would wager we take eve far more seriously than most other games we play. The reason why is that it does take personal skill instead of blindly following mechanics.
Haighare Pirates
#156 - 2017-01-10 17:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:
Your predictions are exatly as wrong as in your first post. So, do you want another try or will you quit your career as diviner?


Don't take it too personally Roggo. EVE players are known to be downright hostile to people that show even the slightest shred of dissent towards what makes EVE the unique experience that it is. Be that anti-ganking, anti-scamming, non-PvP mindset or PvE conformity.

On the other hand, new players that embrace EVE for what it is are often rewarded and praised by other players.
Dibz
#157 - 2017-01-10 17:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dibz
Jemalous wrote:
This was said before I feel I need to say it again. He reviewed a game that he did not understand.


This is such a BS argument. "They just need to understand it better, then their criticisms would be valid"

He understood fine, he just didn't like it.

It's like those people who say "see you next month" to people who say they're quitting an MMO. They are so addicted/personally invested in the game that they can't deal with criticism of it.
#158 - 2017-01-10 17:29:25 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
But that's where you get the warning popup informing you that you may not be able to dock at the destination before accepting the contract. Some just ignore it ("blahblah weird legal stuff, just click yes") and some take the risk knowingly.

I will only drop this nice experiment results:
http://techtalk.pcpitstop.com/2012/06/12/it-pays-to-read-license-agreements-7-years-later/ Lol
#159 - 2017-01-10 17:44:50 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
In case of citadel courier scams you of course have this window, but that does not guarantee that anybody will read it and understand what can be the meaning of that.


Actually, CCP should improve the NPE by doing this:

The first time a newbie gets a contract to deliver to a citadel, pop up the warning and have the client measure how long the newbie takes to read the warning. If they click OK too fast to have read that, pop up a second warning saying "You didn't read or heed that previous warning, did you? Well, congrats, numbnuts, you've just been scammed, next time read the warnings we've coded into the game for your benefit." and force-fail the contract even if it wasn't a scam.
#160 - 2017-01-10 17:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Memphis Baas wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
In case of citadel courier scams you of course have this window, but that does not guarantee that anybody will read it and understand what can be the meaning of that.


Actually, CCP should improve the NPE by doing this:

The first time a newbie gets a contract to deliver to a citadel, pop up the warning and have the client measure how long the newbie takes to read the warning. If they click OK too fast to have read that, pop up a second warning saying "You didn't read or heed that previous warning, did you? Well, congrats, numbnuts, you've just been scammed, next time read the warnings we've coded into the game for your benefit." and force-fail the contract even if it wasn't a scam.

Interesting idea. Would be nice to see the results. Maybe not in this words, but developing an educational tool into financial career agent and deliberately teaching scammin to a new player, as part of gameplay. Then the final exam would be to check if player has learned something by deliberately trying to scam him by NPC contract. You accept the contract and cant deliver it? Mission failed!
There would be two paths, and choosing one (citadel contract) would deliberately cause failing this mission.
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