Intergalactic Summit

 
 

927 Combat Roam, Ships & Ordnance Supplied!

Author
#541 - 2017-01-11 00:22:51 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to ask what law or laws you're providing for all of this, and provided for the original one, too, that pilots can't get elsewhere.

The law of virtue signaling?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

#542 - 2017-01-11 00:24:48 UTC
What statements are you referring to?
#543 - 2017-01-11 01:09:39 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to ask what law or laws you're providing for all of this, and provided for the original one, too, that pilots can't get elsewhere.
I honestly do not understand what you mean by this?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Goonswarm Federation
#544 - 2017-01-11 01:13:28 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to ask what law or laws you're providing for all of this, and provided for the original one, too, that pilots can't get elsewhere.
I honestly do not understand what you mean by this?


That you maybe should learn the difference between 'Ordinance', ie: a law, and 'Ordnance', ie: artillery and the logistics of ammunition. I'd meant to mention it earlier, as someone in fact did, but with the thread's resurrection it occurred to me again.
#545 - 2017-01-11 04:51:45 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to ask what law or laws you're providing for all of this, and provided for the original one, too, that pilots can't get elsewhere.
I honestly do not understand what you mean by this?


That you maybe should learn the difference between 'Ordinance', ie: a law, and 'Ordnance', ie: artillery and the logistics of ammunition. I'd meant to mention it earlier, as someone in fact did, but with the thread's resurrection it occurred to me again.
I should never be surprised at how low the spineless can stoop to earn petty points, I thought better of you, but I have now learned.

A point to you, bravo.

Oh, to clear up your wondering, it's the universal law of right wins over wrong eventually. Although it is not new, many bottom feeders forget that what goes around comes around sooner or later. Some of us more traditional Matari have learned to be patient and persistent.

A lot of people thought "Burn Jita" was an event that would be annual, then asses got severely kicked and the butt hurt little bee swarm had to find new hives under the protection of Empire station guns in low sec just to stay alive.

The mighty do fall and the fallen do rise.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Goonswarm Federation
#546 - 2017-01-11 05:00:45 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
I should never be surprised at how low the spineless can stoop to earn petty points, I thought better of you, but I have now learned.

A point to you, bravo.


Did you forget so soon Aria's lessons? I'm a pedant. I will pick at these little things. It's not an insult, it's just a light poking.

As for the rest... again, you should have listened to Aria. You're not going to get under my skin by regurgitating empty nonsense. But clearly, even the slightest implication that you're not perfect gets under yours. You didn't know a word. Now you know the word.

As for your universal law... I'll believe that when it starts happening. So far, it more seems that the universal law of 'who wins' is far more consistently 'whoever's got the best set-up for that battle'. Morality really has very little to do with it.
#547 - 2017-01-11 06:40:53 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
I should never be surprised at how low the spineless can stoop to earn petty points, I thought better of you, but I have now learned.

A point to you, bravo.


Did you forget so soon Aria's lessons? I'm a pedant. I will pick at these little things. It's not an insult, it's just a light poking.

As for the rest... again, you should have listened to Aria. You're not going to get under my skin by regurgitating empty nonsense. But clearly, even the slightest implication that you're not perfect gets under yours. You didn't know a word. Now you know the word.

As for your universal law... I'll believe that when it starts happening. So far, it more seems that the universal law of 'who wins' is far more consistently 'whoever's got the best set-up for that battle'. Morality really has very little to do with it.
If I was trying to get under your skin I would have mentioned that during YOUR tenure with one of the formerly most powerful alliances in New Eden they have sharply declined in every measurable category of influence.

Coincidence? Hmmmm?

The once formidable war machine that you like to take so much credit for being a part of can't seem to fight it's way out of empire low sec these days.

I could go on and on with the list of things that track the flaming plummet from the top, but hey, it's common knowledge, everyone with eyes can see the sad state of your alliance's affairs, except for those simple minded loyalists with their fingers covering their eyes pretending everything is still just fine.

You've been kicked off center stage, at least have the good grace to stop shouting from the side lines like you were still relevant. Your turn is just about over.

In fact I should stop talking about your alliance, just like everyone else in New Eden already has.


‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Arataka Research Consortium
#548 - 2017-01-11 06:50:01 UTC
Um. I've missed, oh, twenty-seven pages of drivel, but Mr. Ronin? Those pilots you derided as being unable to fight their way out of lowsec these days? They occupy Delve.

Your information might be a bit out of date.

Anyway, do carry on.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

#549 - 2017-01-11 07:11:06 UTC
Ronin, believe me when i say I'm not against you, but picking fights with Arrendis, who I will say I do have respect for, is pointless. Shes not wrong... Well, maybe when it comes to what your actually trying to do. Fact of the matter is SHE is not your enemy, your enemy have resigned themselves to not speaking here. Ignore such things and speak to those whoare really your audience. Shes tied up to her own groups fight as she, or anybody really fighting for any cause should be. Know your enemy, don't see enemies where they aren't.
#550 - 2017-01-11 07:50:53 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Ronin, believe me when i say I'm not against you, but picking fights with Arrendis, who I will say I do have respect for, is pointless. Shes not wrong... Well, maybe when it comes to what your actually trying to do. Fact of the matter is SHE is not your enemy, your enemy have resigned themselves to not speaking here. Ignore such things and speak to those whoare really your audience. Shes tied up to her own groups fight as she, or anybody really fighting for any cause should be. Know your enemy, don't see enemies where they aren't.
Honestly I sort of like Arrendis because she is sooo much bluster, but she goes out of her way to snipe at me, so I snipe back. She may not fully be an enemy but she is no ally to the cause of abolition.

She seems to have her head stuck so far up the nether regions of the popular crowd she lost any sense of morality, which is a shame because the "good fight" could use more help from people with name recognition. However jarring them out of their follower role into leadership roles is a difficult task, I will attempt to get some of them like her to realize she could make a difference if she did what was the right thing instead of just the popular thing.

The "in" crowd changes, but right and wrong are constant.


‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

#551 - 2017-01-11 07:54:03 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Um. I've missed, oh, twenty-seven pages of drivel, but Mr. Ronin? Those pilots you derided as being unable to fight their way out of lowsec these days? They occupy Delve.

Your information might be a bit out of date.

Anyway, do carry on.
Thanks for your fact based input but you were not the fish I baited that hook for.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

404 Alliance Not Found
#552 - 2017-01-11 07:57:05 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
She seems to have her head stuck so far up the nether regions of the popular crowd she lost any sense of morality, which is a shame because the "good fight" could use more help from people with name recognition. However jarring them out of their follower role into leadership roles is a difficult task, I will attempt to get some of them like her to realize she could make a difference if she did what was the right thing instead of just the popular thing.

The "in" crowd changes, but right and wrong are constant.




Huh. I couldn't have said it any better myself, well done. Sadly she isn't the only one who suffers from this either.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Goonswarm Federation
#553 - 2017-01-11 08:55:20 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
If I was trying to get under your skin I would have[. . . ]


Said all the things you just said while totally not trying to get under my skin? Bravo, you've reached all new levels of transparency and ineffectualness.

As far as the cause of abolition goes... again, you seem to have no grasp of how people work. The more you press your case with aggression and violence, the more you will drive people to cling to the thing you want them to give up. The way to achieve your goals—which are laudible ones—is not through violence and attack, but through reason and diplomacy. These are the very means you eschew.

And so all you do is work against your interests. If you really want to make progress, use your status as a capsuleer. Establish connections within the Amarr egger community. Those lead near the upper echelons of Amarr nobility, even when you're not talking about Holders like Lady Newelle. From there, if they know you, and they know you to be honest and honorable, your words have weight. Even if they don't trust you (hi, Aldrith!), they'll consider what you say, and consider whether or not they can afford to ignore your position, and its merits.

Otherwise, all you seek to do is to force them to give up their beliefs, their ways, and their culture at gunpoint, on the threat of pain and death.

And how well did that work on us, Ronin? Why do you think for a moment that a people as proud as the Amarr will be any less intractable? Why do you think for a moment that you can marshal enough force to pose enough of a threat that you can force a change in an Empire that is already dealing with pirate forces strong enough to throw away hundred of thousands, if not millions of ships a year?

This isn't meant as some disparagement of your competence or your capabilities. It's an honest question. Do you really think you will even register as an annoyance to them? As anything more than 'cost of doing business'? If you don't... then your activities are effectively already factored into their economy. And if that's the case, how are you actually advancing your cause?
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2017-01-11 08:59:22 UTC
Hi. Remember that one time the Amarr Empire tried to use violence to put down the Minmatar Rebellion, or all the other relatively minor uprisings before that? How did that turn out for them?

Now flip it around and tell me how using violence to get what we want will turn out for us.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Goonswarm Federation
#555 - 2017-01-11 09:06:17 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
she goes out of her way to snipe at me


You really think I'm going out of my way to snipe at you? I give you as little effort as I give Kim, Vaari, etc. Really, Ronin, pointing out that you've used the wrong word wasn't exactly a massive undertaking. It just requires actually having a decent vocabulary.
#556 - 2017-01-11 10:10:33 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
If I was trying to get under your skin I would have[. . . ]


Said all the things you just said while totally not trying to get under my skin? Bravo, you've reached all new levels of transparency and ineffectualness.

As far as the cause of abolition goes... again, you seem to have no grasp of how people work. The more you press your case with aggression and violence, the more you will drive people to cling to the thing you want them to give up. The way to achieve your goals—which are laudible ones—is not through violence and attack, but through reason and diplomacy. These are the very means you eschew.

And so all you do is work against your interests. If you really want to make progress, use your status as a capsuleer. Establish connections within the Amarr egger community. Those lead near the upper echelons of Amarr nobility, even when you're not talking about Holders like Lady Newelle. From there, if they know you, and they know you to be honest and honorable, your words have weight. Even if they don't trust you (hi, Aldrith!), they'll consider what you say, and consider whether or not they can afford to ignore your position, and its merits.

Otherwise, all you seek to do is to force them to give up their beliefs, their ways, and their culture at gunpoint, on the threat of pain and death.

And how well did that work on us, Ronin? Why do you think for a moment that a people as proud as the Amarr will be any less intractable? Why do you think for a moment that you can marshal enough force to pose enough of a threat that you can force a change in an Empire that is already dealing with pirate forces strong enough to throw away hundred of thousands, if not millions of ships a year?

This isn't meant as some disparagement of your competence or your capabilities. It's an honest question. Do you really think you will even register as an annoyance to them? As anything more than 'cost of doing business'? If you don't... then your activities are effectively already factored into their economy. And if that's the case, how are you actually advancing your cause?
As I said earlier, because some stuff is just too easy to predict .......
Power only yields to a greater power.

Before all the trolls chime in, and you know who they are, please don't assume I am plotting an overthrow of an empire, that's straw man hokum.

As with the initial post people will recite their canned speeches about what they think is planned and why it can never possibly logistically work.

Fortunately the universe is not as limited as some people's imagination or tactical creativity. ....


Because you can not imagine how something will move forward does not mean it will not move forward. Your limitations are not universal, other people can have greater abilities and probably most people have lesser abilities. Nonetheless you are ready to dismiss a plan because you just somehow think inhumane slavers who sell children and grandmothers will one day change their ways if we are nice and they learn to respect our words because we are honest and honorable.

If you really even thought that was true I wouldn't waste anymore time on you. You are just playing the role again, you argue the standard stuff about how to nicely affect change when history has no model of it being effective.

Let's do one of your thought exercises.

Quote:
What are my chances of forcing change if I have forged a coalition with the "Drifters"? You know the guys who curb stomped a Titan with the titular leader of an Empire flying it in her home space surrounded by her Navy. Think it would rise to beyond annoyance level?


Not that I am even contemplating talking to those monsters but to assume the situation remains static in a ever changing universe is at best unwise. Please think, imagine how things might change and not just how they will not. No one dared to think jamyl would get insta curb stomped until it happened. A few weapons like that in the hands of freedom fighters would crush the slavery cultists because our technology can't defeat it yet.

Proud and stubborn can not offset alpha strike instant death. The future is not set in stone we have to make it happen.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

#557 - 2017-01-11 10:27:32 UTC
Arrendis let's do another thought exercise.

This time we salvage and reverse engineer a Sansha jump portal generator, the kind they use that Concord can't stop. Now just the Sansha and Freedom Fighters have the tech. Could that change the mix and force changes?

Getting around faster with more then your opponent can, gives you one heck of an advantage even if they are an empire.


Second part of the thought exercise.

Freedom fighters get their hands on a Drifter Battleship Blue Print and now they can jump those wicked puppies anywhere.

Imagine the damage just one hundred of those things could do jumping into any system in high sec with bad intentions?

Yes an empire could be dragged kicking and screaming to the peace negotiations table because the other three empires would be doing their best to sweet talk the Freedom Fighters into sharing the tech and a few blue print copies.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Mercenary Coalition
#558 - 2017-01-11 11:52:24 UTC
Anyone here who thinks there's even the slightest chance capsuleer words can convince the Empire to release our people needs to have a serious reality check. We may be so far above your average baseliner that they're not even visible from our lofty perch, but those who lead the nations are equally as far above us and hold their own counsel. You can yap at or with the Imperial loyalists every day for a century and it'll make no difference, unless you also put your money and your guns to work as well.

When you also consider that we are on an actual timetable here, since the Empire is as we speak grinding out the last few remaining Matari spirits among the people they hold, words are not enough. Words will not prevent that final genocide, as fewer and fewer people with the hearts and minds of Matari are born in the Empire with every generation.

The Empire will never willingly release these people before they're as broken and indoctrinated as the ones Jammies used as a weapon, and you all know this. The only remaining options before us then, is surrender or force. Abandon our people, or release them by force.

Of course, this does not mean cornering them with no escape options. The aid programs for transitioning to non-slave economies for Holders are in effect and for small enough holdings have been successfully employed, providing analysis and consultation for industry automation, transition to a free workforce with wages, along with how to leverage that for an even stronger economy long-term. This of course doesn't really work as well for the large holdings, as they suffer under a heavier inertia, usually more scrutiny from even bigger players and are a bit more resistant to pressure from outside.

None of these carrots work without the stick.

Jabber on, befriend your Imperial loyalists, try to reason them out of situations they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, whatever. Just don't forget that none of them have the slightest reason to do anything but ignore you, until someone brings the "or else" stick into play.
#559 - 2017-01-11 15:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Matar Ronin wrote:
[quote=Deitra Vess]
Honestly I sort of like Arrendis because she is sooo much bluster, but she goes out of her way to snipe at me, so I snipe back. She may not fully be an enemy but she is no ally to the cause of abolition.

She seems to have her head stuck so far up the nether regions of the popular crowd she lost any sense of morality, which is a shame because the "good fight" could use more help from people with name recognition. However jarring them out of their follower role into leadership roles is a difficult task, I will attempt to get some of them like her to realize she could make a difference if she did what was the right thing instead of just the popular thing.

The "in" crowd changes, but right and wrong are constant.



Think of it like a triage, theres her poking at semantics and then theres someone litterally trolling your basic ideas and such. Which is worth your time addressing and which is a very simple edit the typo? You could get more thoughts clearly out there (and honestly this would probably be like ten pages instead of twenty seven) if you focused on your serious attacks instead of wasting your nanite paste on minor dents in your hull. Theres no need to worry about pin pricks when there is no blood to lose.

Also, well said Miz, well said.
Goonswarm Federation
#560 - 2017-01-11 16:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Matar Ronin wrote:
Please think, imagine how things might change and not just how they will not. No one dared to think jamyl would get insta curb stomped until it happened. A few weapons like that in the hands of freedom fighters would crush the slavery cultists because our technology can't defeat it yet.

and
Quote:
Arrendis let's do another thought exercise.


I don't know if you've noticed, but while Drifter battleships are formidable, they're not unstoppable. During the Defense of the Throne Worlds campaign, hundreds upon hundreds of them were destroyed. ARC and SERAPH have accounted for hundreds more, each. 'A few weapons like that' will find themselves swarmed, scrammed, webbed down, and destroyed. That superweapon of theirs doesn't exactly fire on a 30s cycle time.

So let's say you get the blueprints for one. You're going to cause a glorious amount of havoc, but you're going to take losses. Your pilots won't be indestructible, and some of them will get frustrated when the promise of being unbeatable doesn't materialize. Even if you're successful with your strikes, burnout and eager new volunteers means you're going to have churn. Eventually, someone infiltrates your network and steals a copy of those plans. There has, in all of human existence, never been a perfectly secure organization with a member-count higher than 1.

Then you'll be facing thousands of those ships. Worse, with the R&D facilities the Empire has, you'll probably be facing a lot of variations on them, too. Carrier-sized designs packing multiple doomsdays. Cruisers and battlecruisers with low-power versions that are still enough to vaporize anything less durable than a heavily-tanked Command Ship.

An arms race begets an arms race. We've seen that time and again. We see it right now in the way capital fleets across null are mushrooming and upgrading to supercapitals. The Empire is consistently pushing the limits of R&D, and I don't see that slowing down at all under a mercantile Empress.

Quote:
Because you can not imagine how something will move forward does not mean it will not move forward. Your limitations are not universal, other people can have greater abilities and probably most people have lesser abilities.


Did you miss the bit where I quite openly and pointedly asked you how you think you'll move it forward? Or are you unable to actually explain what you claim I'm not seeing? Because I pretty much said 'I'm not seeing it', and invited you to educate me. But you seem to want to go back to evasion and bluster.

And for the record, to claim that non-violent ways to effect change have 'no model of it being effective' is to ignore our own history and the centuries of peace we enjoyed before the Day of Darkness. Or do you think that happened because someone beat everyone else on Matar into submission? There are other examples, too, you just have to look for them.

And Miz: Yes, the carrot needs the stick. But let's face it, we're not an effective stick. We're simply not numerous enough, and most of the capsuleers looking to spill blood as a political statement are gleefully funneling themselves into the Pendulum Games. In strategic terms, diplomatic voices are a force multiplier. We can be that a lot more effectively than we can be the stick.
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