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Citadel defenses are pathetic.....why bother?

Author
The-Culture
#121 - 2017-01-11 06:46:34 UTC
ROFLCOPTER LMFAO wrote:


When I anchor a citadel, I start a 7 day timer and begin to harvest as much ore and ice as I possibly can in order to pay for the structure, asset safety release, and finally a profit.

Think of a citadel as a consumable tool that enables you to generate income rather than a permanent safe haven. I love the fact that I can avoid purchasing and risking a jump freighter or paying a delivery service to move ore out of null sec. Never before has a solo/small corporation been able to stake a 7 day claim in null sec risk free essentially (minus the citadel cost).

Sometimes I get to the point where I start praying that someone will come and blow up one of my citadels so that I can get stuff moved out of null sec.

Using citadel purely for asset safety delivery service? Twisted

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Tactical Supremacy
#122 - 2017-01-11 07:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Did you notice that one player states the other whine here about putting an artificial limit on how many you can have in system, because space is small and tiny, LMAO. Then he thought a bit more about it and adds per corp or alliance because space is big you know, so an artificial limit based on what exactly? By the way I am not having a dig at the player who posted this directly, the HTFU group have already gone on about this in the initial threads about them so my comments are aimed at them!

Obviously the shoal of fish idea scares them because people with bigger wallets can laugh at their futile attempts to inflict injury by blapping decoy ones, they don't like the idea that while they are sitting there blapping one laughing amongst themselves at how upset the owner will be, someone is watching them and laughing at their ineffective efforts.

So to all you indy corps, hold on in terms of putting these things down, build up a huge stock of them then blanket an area with 30 of them, then setup three as you need based on the rigs and then watch with amusement the inefficient war deccers waste their time on them, and you my friends will have won Eve, you know that.

I am building ten Raitaru at this moment, this is great fun..., my Raitaru's will blot out your overviews... EvilTwisted

Seriously though, if you make something so weak the only alternative is to mass produce them that is a design fault, which now gets into the classic Eve strategy of weaponised boredom, you lot just do not like it done to you, so the plaintive cry for an artificial limit on numbers allowed in space will grow and grow, that is so funny. ShockedRoll

EDIT: Here is what you do industrialists, build at least 30 Raitaru's, but get the rigs for three, you know that CCP made it so that for max efficiency you can only do one indy type per Raitaru, so obviously they don't see limiting them as a factor. Once you have made 30, you anchor them. Once the anchoring is complete you then decide which ones will be your production ones, all of them should only be accessible to your corp, no one else, because the key thing is not to allow people to know which ones you actually use. Another trick is wait for an Incursion to occur in your base system then grab loads of those BM's.

When you have them operating run around with decoy ships to the ones you don't use if there are other people in local and be careful not to make it obvious to that cloaky spy.

At this point you have a perfect setup, they will not show up on local as you have not made them public Shocked and people cannot see if they are fitted or not Twisted , the war deccers will have no idea which one to go for Evil and you can produce your goods in perfect peace. Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin

Caldari State
#123 - 2017-01-11 07:16:47 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I am building ten Raitaru at this moment, this is great fun..., my Raitaru's will blot out your overviews... EvilTwisted

Ten Raitaru's are going to blot out everyone's overview?

You get dumber every day.

There should be a dumb and dumber emoji, because evil and twisted doesn't even come close to explaining that claim.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

#124 - 2017-01-11 07:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Bingham McSnuggles wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You said that you are safe in hisec, I gave you an example of someone who was not, if you don't want me to respond stop with the bullshite, hisec is not safe and the example I gave was to point out that what you said was incorrect.

Using a public Indy structure is actually a significant risk, one of the recent griefing abilities offered by these structures is to offer those services cheap then stop fuelling the structure or bring it down, people have lost billions in raw materials to this, yet another badly thought out mechanic that people use to be a pain to others.
It is near impossible to die in highsec if you are defending yourself. You acknowledge this fact in this very thread when you were bragging about how immune to attack you are. Yes, unsupported freighters are vulnerable as are now the new player structures (both completely intentional), but as a whole, highsec is incredibly safe.

You do raise a good point. That probably is an oversight and should be looked to be fixed or using other people's ECs may never catch on. I certainly wouldn't do any high volume industry in a EC I did not trust.



hisec is pretty much the unsafest area of new eden, its plain chaos, especially around tradehubs ( god how i hate jita) . suicide gatecamps. killright scams, undock games, duel invite spamming, fleet invite scams,burn jita events and so on and on and on +always check ur suspect status after leavin lowsec...
0 is the safest ( when ur in an ally/corp) u see if neuts come to local, there is an intel channel and u always can differ friend from foe because of...u guess it...local.

Nah. That may be true on the macro level when you look at the unwashed masses, but for the expert player it is by far the safest. You see, masters of highsec aggression mechanics like Dracvlad and myself, who have a deep understanding of the nuances of CrimeWatch and a good knowledge the ganking meta so we know what to expect from our likely opponents, can operate perfectly safely if we wish. We know the most dangerous pitfalls, can fit our ships to maximize the advantage of CONCORD, and know the tricks that make us immune to all but the most committed and patient (or lucky) attacker. It does take a small amount of effort (and some skill points to get out of T1 haulers), but avoiding the random violence of the trade hub and lanes is trivial for those that understand the sometimes arcane mechanics of highsec.

You do make a good case though that local is way too powerful an intel tool in nullsec that provides far too much safety for what is suppose to be the most dangerous space in the game. One has to imagine that such a source of free intel is living on borrowed time. Of course, that is a discussion for another thread.
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#125 - 2017-01-11 14:28:12 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Not familiar with what their performance is but I would have assumed they wete able to defend themselves.
I thought you needed dreadnoughts to destroy stuff like that since they're designed to blow up structures.
Don't see a good reason why 2 battleships can take one.

Do citadels get bonuses per level like ships do? Maybe that would help if you would try to suggest to make them stronger. Never actually looked up their stats.


I watched 6 rattlesnakes easily take out a citadel.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#126 - 2017-01-11 14:59:39 UTC
I don't care about this topic one way or another, however it is an example of the kind of mistake CCP has made in the past. CCP should have never ever let players of EVE online have "starbases with automated defenses" of any kind, anywhere, ever, but especially in high sec. But they did.

Now they are taking them away, and replacing them with something that you have to actively defend and that is easy to take out with a smallish force if you don't have proper support. As it should have been from day one. OF COURSE people are going to complain, for more than a decade you (CCP) let them have something that was super tough and that protected itself 24/7.

Like i said, CCP did that a lot, off the top of my head lvl 5 missions in high sec, the old Ishtar, the Modus ships and off grid fighter assignment come to mind (there was plenty of anger over the removal of those features too, hell I was one who lamented the end of fighter assign). Seriously, CCP should stop giving players stuff that is so good ie unbalanced that all hell breaks loose when it's nerfed.
#127 - 2017-01-11 15:49:31 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Did you notice that one player states the other whine here about putting an artificial limit on how many you can have in system, because space is small and tiny, LMAO. Then he thought a bit more about it and adds per corp or alliance because space is big you know, so an artificial limit based on what exactly? By the way I am not having a dig at the player who posted this directly, the HTFU group have already gone on about this in the initial threads about them so my comments are aimed at them!

Obviously the shoal of fish idea scares them because people with bigger wallets can laugh at their futile attempts to inflict injury by blapping decoy ones, they don't like the idea that while they are sitting there blapping one laughing amongst themselves at how upset the owner will be, someone is watching them and laughing at their ineffective efforts.

So to all you indy corps, hold on in terms of putting these things down, build up a huge stock of them then blanket an area with 30 of them, then setup three as you need based on the rigs and then watch with amusement the inefficient war deccers waste their time on them, and you my friends will have won Eve, you know that.

I am building ten Raitaru at this moment, this is great fun..., my Raitaru's will blot out your overviews... EvilTwisted

Seriously though, if you make something so weak the only alternative is to mass produce them that is a design fault, which now gets into the classic Eve strategy of weaponised boredom, you lot just do not like it done to you, so the plaintive cry for an artificial limit on numbers allowed in space will grow and grow, that is so funny. ShockedRoll

EDIT: Here is what you do industrialists, build at least 30 Raitaru's, but get the rigs for three, you know that CCP made it so that for max efficiency you can only do one indy type per Raitaru, so obviously they don't see limiting them as a factor. Once you have made 30, you anchor them. Once the anchoring is complete you then decide which ones will be your production ones, all of them should only be accessible to your corp, no one else, because the key thing is not to allow people to know which ones you actually use. Another trick is wait for an Incursion to occur in your base system then grab loads of those BM's.

When you have them operating run around with decoy ships to the ones you don't use if there are other people in local and be careful not to make it obvious to that cloaky spy.

At this point you have a perfect setup, they will not show up on local as you have not made them public Shocked and people cannot see if they are fitted or not Twisted , the war deccers will have no idea which one to go for Evil and you can produce your goods in perfect peace. Big smile



i was the player stating it would be useful to limit the number of deployable cits, in some kind of way. cause u know its fun to have like 5 cits on grid with a bubbled gate.......or some solo indys just use them for asset safety and drop dozens of them around new eden.i could go on and on with the list of reasons why it would be useful but its a waste of time, cause evrybody has a different approach to this topic. :)
#128 - 2017-01-11 17:55:44 UTC
A citadel being worth 1 battleship worth of offensive power vs 5 really isn't going to make or break the game one way or the other. The problem is that they're stuck in this half arse in between place of being a station and being a POS.

Okay, so you're a small corp, you shouldn't own one because you can't defend it, use other people's citadels... alright fine. But then they should be a hell of a lot more reliable for third party people to use. Let me me put fuel into them so the 20 junkers near me with every service module offline is actually useful. Let me specialize my own bonuses on them so I have don't have to hunt 15 systems only to find a "This EC has a ship making bonus, but only smalls and on Sundays" raitaru. Right now us third party peeps are at the mercy of EC owners who don't even get feedback on when off-lining a service module will screw us over.
#129 - 2017-01-11 19:24:34 UTC
Dracones wrote:
A citadel being worth 1 battleship worth of offensive power vs 5 really isn't going to make or break the game one way or the other. The problem is that they're stuck in this half arse in between place of being a station and being a POS.

Okay, so you're a small corp, you shouldn't own one because you can't defend it, use other people's citadels... alright fine. But then they should be a hell of a lot more reliable for third party people to use. Let me me put fuel into them so the 20 junkers near me with every service module offline is actually useful. Let me specialize my own bonuses on them so I have don't have to hunt 15 systems only to find a "This EC has a ship making bonus, but only smalls and on Sundays" raitaru. Right now us third party peeps are at the mercy of EC owners who don't even get feedback on when off-lining a service module will screw us over.

Or you could just contact the corp owning the Citadel and work on some form of cooperation.

It's funny how much of the whine is regarding not being able to do corp stuff solo in a community based game.
EvE-Scout Enclave
#130 - 2017-01-11 19:40:14 UTC
Considering the vast number of Citadels in High Sec perhaps it's good if they are "Easy" to take down. When I first heard of Citadels I thought they would be insanely expensive and mostly used in Systems without regular Stations (and mostly in Low/Null) but as it turns out they infest High Sec and makes it a nightmare to navigate the Overview.
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2017-01-11 19:47:27 UTC
Akane Togenada wrote:
Considering the vast number of Citadels in High Sec perhaps it's good if they are "Easy" to take down. When I first heard of Citadels I thought they would be insanely expensive and mostly used in Systems without regular Stations (and mostly in Low/Null) but as it turns out they infest High Sec and makes it a nightmare to navigate the Overview.


Just remove them from the overview, give them their own overview tab.
Working Stiffs
#132 - 2017-01-11 20:05:09 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Just remove them from the overview, give them their own overview tab.

... or maybe even a Structure Browser! Blink
#133 - 2017-01-11 20:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
I don't own a citadel and have no interest in them, but it only cost a billion or so for a merc corp to take down.

Really negating the cost effectiveness of them.

Short of having hundreds of people at your disposal, you might as well just contract your things to me if you are seriously thinking of setting one up.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2017-01-12 09:49:50 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I don't own a citadel and have no interest in them, but it only cost a billion or so for a merc corp to take down.

Really negating the cost effectiveness of them.

Short of having hundreds of people at your disposal, you might as well just contract your things to me if you are seriously thinking of setting one up.


There are two vastly different situations here that people conflate.

If somebody owns the #1 market citadel in Eve right next door to Jita and makes an estimated 10b of passive profit a day, he will eventually have to defend it against large player organizations. Because that's more money than a whole bunch of R64 moons make, and you can't keep those without some serious muscle behind you either. It was silly that the Perimeter citadels stayed up as long as they did and I'm glad somebody finally started some action about them.

If your corp owns citadels out of the way without any special qualities, the danger to them is very limited. You will have to deal with other corps of similar size or some small merc outfits and those guys really are not impossible to defend against even if carebear corps love to break out in panic at the sight of a war dec. A correctly fit citadel - even if it's only an Astrahus - is a great force multiplier, and it's in fact quite easy to engage an enemy on a citadel on equal terms and wipe the floor with them. If you do that on the third timer, they just lost a week of progress and that alone is already demoralizing enough to wardeccers to make them immediately drop the war.
Caldari State
#135 - 2017-01-12 10:19:53 UTC
Citadels are crap and should be purged from the game.
#136 - 2017-01-12 10:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
Well the OP has highlighted some valid issues, and I don't fully appreciate the attitude of, "if you can't defend it you don't deserve to have it". The problem here is essentially the wardec mechanics. Yes, Citadels are a corporation level asset. But the 100 or so battleships being sent against them are not corporation level threats. They are alliance level threats. There is no possible way that a 5 or 10 man corporation could defend itself against a 100 man wardec, small corporations can't deal with those threat levels without some outside help. So the wardec mechanic allowing this situation is doing much to make small corps nervous and lessen their enjoyment in creating this, "little place they call home".

Though, at the same time. I don't like the clutter at Perimeter. the 20+ Raitaru is absolute madness, and I'm not sorry to see some of them gone. Frankly, if you're little 10 man corp put a citadel in Perimeter then you're playing with the big boys, so you ought to have a defence strategy. If not, then sue for peace and un-anchor your citadel if you don't want to loose it.

I also need to ask the question. From the subjective experiences on the DPS of Raitaru missiles. What fittings were these stations using? Were they half hearted defences with skeleton fitting? Or was it a proper defence with all modules and rigs?

Quote:

A citadel being worth 1 battleship worth of offensive power vs 5 really isn't going to make or break the game one way or the other. The problem is that they're stuck in this half arse in between place of being a station and being a POS.

Okay, so you're a small corp, you shouldn't own one because you can't defend it, use other people's citadels... alright fine. But then they should be a hell of a lot more reliable for third party people to use. Let me me put fuel into them so the 20 junkers near me with every service module offline is actually useful. Let me specialize my own bonuses on them so I have don't have to hunt 15 systems only to find a "This EC has a ship making bonus, but only smalls and on Sundays" raitaru. Right now us third party peeps are at the mercy of EC owners who don't even get feedback on when off-lining a service module will screw us over.


@Dracones: The reliability of fuel supply, and specialisation of rigs and modules on a prospective EC is one of the things which you should ask the owners about. You need to get on good relations with the owners of the Citadel, and if they are not willing to give you a corporate office, tell you what rigs and service modules they have, then take your business elsewhere.

I'm considering setting up an EC. But, if I do, then I'm only going to have it open to corporations who are willing to open an office in the facility. So that I can directly communicate with them and give feedback on the status of fuel and modules. So that I can give a guaranteed and reliable service... That way, if I need to offline the manufacturing service modules I can give advanced warning - without inadvertently cancelling my customers jobs.
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2017-01-15 15:30:04 UTC
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!
This needs a to be looked at by someone.
#138 - 2017-01-15 16:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hir Miriel
APHRATTOS wrote:
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!
This needs a to be looked at by someone.


Maybe the Astrahaus in high sec have all been boosting defenders and the defenders are getting the kills?

*he says extremely hopefully*

I'd love to own my own little piece of Eden, but the citadels and engineering complexes look like they have been mainly designed for disposability.

Which is fine, but CCP has to realise that NPC stations, most famously Jita, are popular for a reason.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~

#139 - 2017-01-15 17:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
APHRATTOS wrote:
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!


Correct!

Quote:
This needs a to be looked at by someone.


Incorrect!


Engage your braincase for a minute and realize that means that the defenders didn't even kill anything the citadel had engaged.

Most of those died completely undefended, because most of the people who put up structures in high sec are helpless numpties who are relying on boredom and luck as a defense strategy.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

#140 - 2017-01-15 17:47:43 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
APHRATTOS wrote:
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!


Correct!

Quote:
This needs a to be looked at by someone.


Incorrect!


Engage your braincase for a minute and realize that means that the defenders didn't even kill anything the citadel had engaged.

Most of those died completely undefended, because most of the people who put up structures in high sec are helpless numpties who are relying on boredom and luck as a defense strategy.

This also means that no astrahaus in all of hisec has been on a killmail ever. Most are probably undefended but all of them having been undefended is unlikely. Also, in total the astrahaus has only been on about 100 killmails (an oddly high number of their kills are from pandemic legion and pandemic horde and I am not sure why; it's about 30%)
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