EVE General Discussion

 
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War decs : not achieving objectives

Author
#161 - 2017-03-06 20:45:39 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
One possibility is that all this safety and lack of risk is boring players out of the game. I am going to refer to this as the 'Tippia effect' from now on: the problem that excess safety prevents meaningful content and challenging opposition from taking place devaluing the satisfaction in accumulating wealth, leading to boredom and people quitting the game.


People have been claiming this for years, and its never held up to the actual experience of many of the players who leave.
Doesn't it? Unlike you, I won't claim to know what every Eve player's experience was but it is clear that there is plenty of evidence that players are still regularly bored out of the game. Just today, CCP Quant released a report that shows that players owning 35.6T ISK in assets quit the game last month. Further, talks from CCP Rise in 2014 and from CCP Quant in 2015 show really how bad a game Eve is at retaining players who don't get engaged with the sandbox and just do their thing in peace (AFK highsec mining, "levelling their Raven" or whatever) for a short while before stopping to log in altogether.

I have no doubt some people quit Eve after their first unexpected loss to another player either because they didn't like such an experience, or weren't expecting it. Losing to other players is not acceptable to many modern gamers. But I am equally sure many more have tried the game, mined alone in a Venture for a few weeks, and then quietly moved on to some other game that is more engaging, which is a shame as many of those would have really enjoyed playing in our sandbox if they had only found a way in and to connect with the real interesting bits of the game - interactions with other players both cooperative and competitive.


Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?
Caldari State
#162 - 2017-03-06 21:03:02 UTC
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
One possibility is that all this safety and lack of risk is boring players out of the game. I am going to refer to this as the 'Tippia effect' from now on: the problem that excess safety prevents meaningful content and challenging opposition from taking place devaluing the satisfaction in accumulating wealth, leading to boredom and people quitting the game.


People have been claiming this for years, and its never held up to the actual experience of many of the players who leave.
Doesn't it? Unlike you, I won't claim to know what every Eve player's experience was but it is clear that there is plenty of evidence that players are still regularly bored out of the game. Just today, CCP Quant released a report that shows that players owning 35.6T ISK in assets quit the game last month. Further, talks from CCP Rise in 2014 and from CCP Quant in 2015 show really how bad a game Eve is at retaining players who don't get engaged with the sandbox and just do their thing in peace (AFK highsec mining, "levelling their Raven" or whatever) for a short while before stopping to log in altogether.

I have no doubt some people quit Eve after their first unexpected loss to another player either because they didn't like such an experience, or weren't expecting it. Losing to other players is not acceptable to many modern gamers. But I am equally sure many more have tried the game, mined alone in a Venture for a few weeks, and then quietly moved on to some other game that is more engaging, which is a shame as many of those would have really enjoyed playing in our sandbox if they had only found a way in and to connect with the real interesting bits of the game - interactions with other players both cooperative and competitive.


Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?

It's probably both.

I'm more interested in the assumptions that this thread (and others looking for an improved initial playing experience) are intended to improve the safety of the affected players. It makes no sense to assume people trying out EVE want to avoid PvP, but it's reasonable to assume they expect to enjoy their gaming experience even as beginners.

These threads are about removing or changing game elements that discourage people from leaving highsec.

It's a safe bet that if fun-vampires are doing something that targets newer players, and has a net effect of wasting their time, it will discourage the newer players for trying out new in-game activities, and encourage them to leave due to boredom.

Both are good outcomes for the fun-vampires of course, but are they good for anyone else?

Amojin
#163 - 2017-03-06 21:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Hakawai wrote:
It's a safe bet that if fun-vampires are doing something that targets newer players, and has a net effect of wasting their time, it will discourage the newer players for trying out new in-game activities, and encourage them to leave due to boredom.

Both are good outcomes for the fun-vampires of course, but are they good for anyone else?


I'm not sure what you're trying to point out, here. We all do what we find fun. I found it fun to sacrifice a 400M isk ship, to see what the miners would do? Would they launch 60+ drones?

That would have been a very, very strange killmail for the Rattlesnake pilot to swallow. It's experience for me, on a number of levels. It's just a number. A graphic.

The real gain was in seeing HOW you would respond, when someone tossed 'conventional wisdom' out the window.

The time for this may come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn02c176YuI

But, not yet.
The-Culture
#164 - 2017-03-06 21:12:14 UTC
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
One possibility is that all this safety and lack of risk is boring players out of the game. I am going to refer to this as the 'Tippia effect' from now on: the problem that excess safety prevents meaningful content and challenging opposition from taking place devaluing the satisfaction in accumulating wealth, leading to boredom and people quitting the game.


People have been claiming this for years, and its never held up to the actual experience of many of the players who leave.
Doesn't it? Unlike you, I won't claim to know what every Eve player's experience was but it is clear that there is plenty of evidence that players are still regularly bored out of the game. Just today, CCP Quant released a report that shows that players owning 35.6T ISK in assets quit the game last month. Further, talks from CCP Rise in 2014 and from CCP Quant in 2015 show really how bad a game Eve is at retaining players who don't get engaged with the sandbox and just do their thing in peace (AFK highsec mining, "levelling their Raven" or whatever) for a short while before stopping to log in altogether.

I have no doubt some people quit Eve after their first unexpected loss to another player either because they didn't like such an experience, or weren't expecting it. Losing to other players is not acceptable to many modern gamers. But I am equally sure many more have tried the game, mined alone in a Venture for a few weeks, and then quietly moved on to some other game that is more engaging, which is a shame as many of those would have really enjoyed playing in our sandbox if they had only found a way in and to connect with the real interesting bits of the game - interactions with other players both cooperative and competitive.


Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?

Need to say i know some PvP-oriented players who left the game too.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

The-Culture
#165 - 2017-03-06 21:23:39 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Kentonio wrote:

Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?

Need to say i know some PvP-oriented players who left the game too.

Likewise, old wealthy players too.
#166 - 2017-03-06 21:27:02 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Kentonio wrote:

Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?

Need to say i know some PvP-oriented players who left the game too.

Likewise, old wealthy players too.


I only resubbed today after nearly 3 years away, so I'd have been one of those draining assets out of the system until now too.
#167 - 2017-03-06 21:36:45 UTC
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Kentonio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
One possibility is that all this safety and lack of risk is boring players out of the game. I am going to refer to this as the 'Tippia effect' from now on: the problem that excess safety prevents meaningful content and challenging opposition from taking place devaluing the satisfaction in accumulating wealth, leading to boredom and people quitting the game.


People have been claiming this for years, and its never held up to the actual experience of many of the players who leave.
Doesn't it? Unlike you, I won't claim to know what every Eve player's experience was but it is clear that there is plenty of evidence that players are still regularly bored out of the game. Just today, CCP Quant released a report that shows that players owning 35.6T ISK in assets quit the game last month. Further, talks from CCP Rise in 2014 and from CCP Quant in 2015 show really how bad a game Eve is at retaining players who don't get engaged with the sandbox and just do their thing in peace (AFK highsec mining, "levelling their Raven" or whatever) for a short while before stopping to log in altogether.

I have no doubt some people quit Eve after their first unexpected loss to another player either because they didn't like such an experience, or weren't expecting it. Losing to other players is not acceptable to many modern gamers. But I am equally sure many more have tried the game, mined alone in a Venture for a few weeks, and then quietly moved on to some other game that is more engaging, which is a shame as many of those would have really enjoyed playing in our sandbox if they had only found a way in and to connect with the real interesting bits of the game - interactions with other players both cooperative and competitive.


Why are you assuming those disappearing assets are carebear accounts and not bored nullsecers?
Same thing? They are players bored with too much safety and hand-holding, or players bored by never finding the real game at all. Eve players love to whine and complain for more safety in the name of "balance" or "quality of life" or some other euphemism that ultimately just results in less opportunities for conflict, player stories, and motivation to actually "do stuff" in the game. This insidious ennui strikes higsec player and nullsec player alike. When the game is softened to the point no one can lose, then also no one can win nor is there really anything interesting left to do. Eve in absence of risk and competition is a visually pretty, but fundamentally uninteresting game.

There is a non-negligible fraction of players who play Eve for fleet battles and would be just as happy if CCP just seeded everything on the market and killed the sandbox completely. However, for the majority of us, we play because what we do effects and has meaning in the greater virtual universe and its economy. This especially true for PvEers and industrialists who essentially are given resources, and often effectively get their accounts paid for, by players who want the virtual goods they collect and build to wage war on other players.

Players can get bored and quit either because they never get engaged (the stats CCP has provided clearly show this) in the first place, or because they build and build but meaningful opposition never comes. Some of that might be on them for lacking the imagination to create content and set goals for themselves, but it certainly doesn't help when CCP continually makes everywhere, but especially highsec, safer and safer, and removes conflict driver after conflict driver, and tool after tool to make content. And of course, like any game, there is a certain level of players churn as people leave due to changes in their real life or when it ends.

As for wardecs, they are a key tool to allow player groups to interact in highsec, and most importantly, contest structures. They aren't going anywhere, especially as we get more structures and structure functionality. As CCP Rise said:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."

Wars may be too punitive on players who shouldn't be in a competitive corp in the first place and I am sure players are lost because of this. The solution however, is not to make the rest of the game more boring and safer for the rest of us. That has been tried for many years now and the player counts continue to decrease. The solution it seems to me is rather to make a social corp or some other structure for the newer//casual/social players so they can splash about in the sandbox in relative safety, while leaving intact the competition between the rest of us for control of New Eden's economy either through savvy and efficient industrial activity, or direct force (or better yet both) as the game was designed.

If you want a vibrant PvP game, fortune needs to favour the bold. ECs are a good first step to put some risk vs. reward back into industry and make some space for both brave industrialists to make more profit, and newer or more timid ones to find a safer space more comfortable for their level of risk tolerance. More needs to be done, but I am glad CCP seems to be changing direction and trying to reinvigorate sandbox play with how these new structures work.
Vendetta Mercenary Group
#168 - 2017-03-06 21:39:43 UTC
mkint wrote:
gnshadowninja wrote:
As a high sec merc I follow and read all these 'nerf war dec' threads, I find them amusing as there is a new one every week either on here or reddit about how they're broken then see it followed up by tons of people who don't even live in high sec.

People need to join the other side of the fence before trying to give feedback and input, I used to fly in null a lot but haven't for many many years yet I don't feel the need to start up a thread complaining about aspects of your game play. Most of our war decs we like to call 'Content fillers', as you complained and removed our watch lists finding targets has never been harder resulting in the increased war decs.

I see a lot of comments about us preying on the weak, I find this very interesting considering most of my friends in null inform me if you fly anything bigger then a cruiser you get dropped on by supers just for giggles.

War decs wont change, there is no viable system that will cover every issue without nearly breaking the game.

As a wardeccer, how would you feel if your targets were tougher? Would you still do that as a primary activity? What's the typical character age of your targets? Do you intentionally go after rookies and the less experienced? Do you immediately drop it when any target presents an actual challenge?

My experience in dealing with wardec aggressors is that they aren't usually actually very good at the game. But then neither are most defenders. But if they do encounter a defender who actually defends, aggressors typically seem to get all butthurt. So, as an aggressor, what would YOU change to make wars more fun?


Vendetta actually enjoy it when we're presented with a challenge, we hope people fight back so that it creates additional content for us... look at the war we have with PH, it was 200 vs about 30 (that's us multi boxing) yet we were still raring to fight.

Character age means nothing anymore, we have 1 old characters flying guardians/bestows and kill people flying battleships.

With target calling, if someone even says hi in local were Dec them for the fun of it
Amojin
#169 - 2017-03-06 21:44:22 UTC
@Black Pedro

How many variations on a theme do you think you can blind yourself to, even trying as hard as you can?

A sandbox vs a story, has an inherent weakness. You have to overcome this, if you want a vibrant field of play.

Your enemy knows everything about you. It's a sandbox. They participated in creating the content, too. They're not stupid.

Versus a story, where a group of us, yes, actually good story tellers and role-play arc creators, push, a little, leaving most of it to you, but guiding a story.

You can have personal power or you can have an intriguing story, but you can't have both. I made the UFP lose 2 times of 3, for the story, and nobody complained on that MUSH. I lose, here, and do you know what happens?

Nothing. They still won't tank, they still won't fight, they still won't toss a single drone in my defense, even if I sacrifice myself for them. What are they playing for? They don't even seem to do anything with the money, but make more money.

Tearing down your barns to build bigger barns is a fruitless exercise, is it not?
#170 - 2017-03-06 22:03:32 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Players can get bored and quit either because they never get engaged (the stats CCP has provided clearly show this) in the first place, or because they build and build but meaningful opposition never comes.


Well no, you've taken two sets of stats, the first which is self apparent (players don't get engaged in the first place), but the second you've just attached your own interpretation on (long time players leave, so you think it must be because of the reason you think). That's not backed up by any evidence I've seen, that's just you thinking you know why.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some rich carebears do get bored and leave, but I also KNOW that plenty of very rich nullsec dwellers have gone the same way, and they tend to be a LOT richer than the carebears.

Black Pedro wrote:
"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."


Most of us have never talked about 'isolating players away from the sandbox' that's just a classic CCP misunderstanding, what some of us simply want is a more graded and less brutal introduction for new players.

Black Pedro wrote:
Wars may be too punitive on players who shouldn't be in a competitive corp in the first place and I am sure players are lost because of this. The solution however, is not to make the rest of the game more boring and safer for the rest of us.


This is nonsense, making things a bit easier for new players wouldn't have a single moments effect on your gameplay, unless your gameplay relies of kicking sand in the face of newbies. If it does, then I don't care if your game is ruined. Why are you so interested in the gameplay experience of carebears anyway? Why aren't you out in nullsec doing what you keep complaining the bears should be doing?
Amojin
#171 - 2017-03-06 22:08:59 UTC
Kentonio wrote:
Most of us have never talked about 'isolating players away from the sandbox' that's just a classic CCP misunderstanding, what some of us simply want is a more graded and less brutal introduction for new players.


Are you joking? We 'carebears' give you advice on either how to increase in mining, or research, or even missioning if you want mining to be a side job, which I chose to do. We give you free ****, all the time. I can't count how many times somebody was ganked and I just tossed them a 10 run BPC. And that's not uncommon. We're not jerks. Most nice human beings, that you call 'carebears,' actually do try to help new players.

What the hell?
The-Culture
#172 - 2017-03-06 22:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Edit: derp, I'm out.

Don't have the energy.
#173 - 2017-03-06 22:12:24 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Kentonio wrote:
Most of us have never talked about 'isolating players away from the sandbox' that's just a classic CCP misunderstanding, what some of us simply want is a more graded and less brutal introduction for new players.


Are you joking? We 'carebears' give you advice on either how to increase in mining, or research, or even missioning if you want mining to be a side job, which I chose to do. We give you free ****, all the time. I can't count how many times somebody was ganked and I just tossed them a 10 run BPC. And that's not uncommon. We're not jerks. Most nice human beings, that you call 'carebears,' actually do try to help new players.

What the hell?


I think you must have completely misunderstood my post.
Amojin
#174 - 2017-03-06 22:13:48 UTC
Kentonio wrote:

I think you must have completely misunderstood my post.


I would tend to agree with that, if you find my response surprising. What, did you mean, then?
#175 - 2017-03-06 22:16:14 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Kentonio wrote:

I think you must have completely misunderstood my post.


I would tend to agree with that, if you find my response surprising. What, did you mean, then?


I was saying that CCP's explanation for not protecting players has always been some variation on 'we don't want to seperate them from the real game', which isn't what we're suggesting. Simply that new players are given a little more protection from being randomly curb-stomped as they learn what they're doing and start forming corps.
Amojin
#176 - 2017-03-06 22:19:42 UTC
Kentonio wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Kentonio wrote:

I think you must have completely misunderstood my post.


I would tend to agree with that, if you find my response surprising. What, did you mean, then?


I was saying that CCP's explanation for not protecting players has always been some variation on 'we don't want to seperate them from the real game', which isn't what we're suggesting. Simply that new players are given a little more protection from being randomly curb-stomped as they learn what they're doing and start forming corps.


They cannot, and will not do that. It's a sandbox. With power, comes responsibility. To do what you ask would be content generation. CCP won't do that.
#177 - 2017-03-06 22:22:38 UTC
Amojin wrote:
They cannot, and will not do that. It's a sandbox. With power, comes responsibility. To do what you ask would be content generation. CCP won't do that.


There's no such thing as a pure sandbox, they apply limits all over the game, from rookie systems, to sec status and far beyond. They just chose not to here. Which is fair enough, it's their game, they can do what they like. It's cost them a lot of players over the years though.
Amojin
#178 - 2017-03-06 22:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Yes, it has. I admit I'm biased, but when I throw expensive assets at the enemy, like a 400M+ strategic cruiser?

Well, you don't need my full api-key, do you? Is it so much to ask that all of you, sitting there, launch drones, target the enemy and hit the 'F' key?

Real life experience says, yes, it is. It is too much too ask. This puzzles me. They are making money, all the time, but for what?
When the enemy shows up, they roll over like a tiny little dog and show their neck to it. Weird.

I'd rather die, fighting, thanks.
#179 - 2017-03-06 23:18:38 UTC
Twisted

  1. Starting a war is free of charge
  2. Supporting corps / alliances can enter on either side at any time free of charge
  3. A war can be stopped any time provided all involved parties agree
  4. Every involved party needs to pay a fixed exit fee of 1b isk to Concord
  5. After an initial grace period of 48 hours all involved parties are denied access to any NPC stations for the duration of the war


Remove standings and insurance.

Amojin
#180 - 2017-03-06 23:23:23 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Twisted

  1. Starting a war is free of charge
  2. Supporting corps / alliances can enter on either side at any time free of charge
  3. A war can be stopped any time provided all involved parties agree
  4. Every involved party needs to pay a fixed exit fee of 1b isk to Concord
  5. After an initial grace period of 48 hours all involved parties are denied access to any NPC stations for the duration of the war




I'm not paying you a damned thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvYiSDJujA
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