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BREAKING: Ishukone CEO Derided At CEP Session

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Caldari State
#121 - 2017-03-05 05:53:21 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:


While you two bleat, we'll be contributing.


Now now, about bleating. I think most of people here are already sick of your lies, so we'd like to ask you to cease your "contribution" and stop your own bleating. Let professionals work and stop imagining something out of yourself. In the State there is no place for dishonored people like you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2017-03-05 16:25:38 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
You're paranoid, the three of you.

Sometimes, an inquest is just an inquest.

There's no angle.

There's no gun held to your head.

It's an invitation for a joint venture to deal with what remains a major crisis.

ADDITION: You know, there was a pithy little saying my father had. "If you look behind the door, you've hidden there before." Your statements say rather more about you than the situation.



Perhaps. And I would like to be proven wrong. However...

Consider the three of us. A Kameira, a Bloodraider and a Khanid Archangel. That we three, who disagree on so many other points, agree on this one should add weight to viewpoint.

Again and again, we're hampered by a lack of credible facts. But the suppositions that can be formed based on what is available is disturbing.

I have high regard for you as a scientist. Political science is still a science (of a sort), so I'd only ask that you try to keep a very open and objective mind. See things through our eyes and go from there.

The door swings both ways

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#123 - 2017-03-05 17:04:41 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Again, Horn, you are mistaken.

The CEO of Lai Dai, who so flagrantly out of order that Kossinen-haan broke his gavel trying to intervene, disagreed.

That is not unanimity. That is not consensus.

That is one person speaking so far out of turn, and stepping so far beyond norms of behavior, that she behaved shamefully.

You speak of arrogance?

It's Ishanoya attempting to order another megacorporation to go against its shareholders' and workers' will. It's you attempting to argue that a single noisy party has any right to control the actions of another.

That is not our way.


All earlier digressions aside, this is pretty much the truth

What I take away from the article is three points.

One, Ishukone's CEO expressed a view.

Two, Lai-Dai's CEO expressed a view.

Three. Neither represents the Caldari Business Tribunal in its entirety. This was a disagreement.

In the end, it's essentially a political squabble and declaration of viewpoints in the current situation. Literally nobody here can speak for the CBT, and the efforts I've seen so far fall purely in the realm of personal interpretation bordering on outright fantasy, at best, or presumption of non-existant authority over the State as a whole, at worst.

When an edict does come down from the CBT, it'll be my pleasure to follow it, regardless of its stance in relation to my own thoughts and opinions. I would expect the same from my fellows as well. However, Lai-Dai is not the CBT. Ishukone is not the CBT, either.

Until the CBT makes a decision as a whole, both are free to pursue their own ends as they see fit. If the Patriots want to focus on home, good. If the Liberals want to set up information exchange, fine. The canny will find uses for both.

I guarantee that no amount of political horn blowing will come as the slightest aid, however, when compared to either.
Arataka Research Consortium
#124 - 2017-03-06 19:03:32 UTC
Falken-haani has it right, as usual.

I know I don't need to tell Caldari this, but for foreign friends who might be watching this and might feel that some kind of horrible rift has opened up in the Caldari political landscape, you should be aware of the following things:

Caldari Politics is, generally, organised into three power blocs. Liberal, Practical and Patriot. These blocs are somewhat unified internally, but split again along Corporate lines.

Ishukone is a Liberal Corporation. Lai Dai is a Patriot corporation. These two corporations are at opposite ends of the Caldari political spectrum. It would be very unusual that they would agree on something. It might even portend terrible things if they agreed on something.

A broad spectrum coalition is how we got the Provists, if I can remind you.

So, disagreements of this type are nothing particularly unusual. This one is, perhaps, a little more dramatic than normal - but I'd remind you that these two gentlemen are discussing what they consider to be the best tactic to ensure the survival of the Caldari people so... Maybe passion is a good thing?

It does not foreshadow the collapse of the State. Business as usual. Nothing to see here.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Arataka Research Consortium
#125 - 2017-03-06 20:22:53 UTC
A sound basic education, Tuulinen-haan. As you'd expect, I would like to clarify a few points for our audience at home.

In the first, while Patriots, Liberals and Practicals rarely agree on methods, the objective is shared: the improvement of the State, the Corporation, the Citizen. The approach varies. Sometimes, the sort of improvement varies. But we share these basic ideals, else we wouldn't be citizens. There is much we agree on. However, we naturally focus on our disagreements far more than our agreements, which gives the impression of fractiousness.

I would contend, though, that the origin of Provism isn't necessarily a broad-based coalition. Just as Liberal extremists can become dissidents or, Winds forbid, unionists, or Practicals can sometimes weaken or devalue the meritocracy or rewards of citizenship in cut-throat competition, Provism is an extreme far easier to associate with Patriots than with Liberals or Practicals. We all have our fringe that debases the ideals of the State.

In the case of Provism, a catastrophe empowered that fringe far beyond their due, as Liberals and Practicals bowed before an extreme anathema to their ideals.

The lesson, I'd say, is that we should hold true to our values, and to be wary of becoming a mob. Let's leave that to the democracies, eh?

As for the passion, well-- I would contend, Tuulinen-haan, that Horn and Kim are not necessarily Patriots. Horn has gladly flown the Dragonaur flag a number of times, and has made some frankly baffling statements along the lines of Provist orthodoxy. Kim, for her combat prowess, so often seems to portray a version of the State at odds with reality, as if the Provist ideal of the State, nevermind that it debases the true ideals of the State.

Here's an old but lovely example of Horn's baffling statements, sent to my associate Xindi Kraid a while ago. It remains hilarious, and never fails to bring a smile to my face.

Tom Horn in an evemail to Xindi Kraid wrote:
Caldari Prime resistance movement has placed your name on a list,of Caldari liberal fascist capsuleers, liberal fascist of other races, who are now KOS for the resistance movement. The list is code named WAR PIGS.

Your crimes against the State are many Kraid, youve been charged with collusion with enemy being a quisling , on this charge the resistance has found you guilty.

Your charged with corruption and corporate malfeasance , for your part in the financial collapse of the Ishukone owned subsidiary Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive , the resistance movement has found you guilty on this charge.

You are charged with one of the most despicable crimes anyone can ever committ genocide.You are now involved with other liberal fascists, in the ethnic cleansing of another race, for the basic fact that you cannot understand them and have been unable to communicate with them. With the sole purpose of this ethnic cleansing, is to enrich yourselves , by stealing the secrets of their advanced and powerful techonologies. On this charge the resistance finds you guilty.

Many times Kraid ,i say many times, you have spoken out that you would personally like to put a bullet in the head , of the greatest Caldari hero Tibus Heth. We have not forgotten, on this charge resistance movement has found you guilty.

Any of our fighters who suicide attacks you , will be rewarded by the great Caldari Spirit with 50 nubile Caldari virgins, in the after life at the end of their immortality.

We are going to wipe you off the face of this New Eden universe Kraid. You are a dead man walking WAR PIG , PIG ,PIG ,PIG ,PIG PIG.

Glory to Tibus Heth , heil Heth , heil Heth , sieg heil , sieg heil , sieg heil.

Glory to the Great Caladri Spirits , Glory to the Provist Mujahideen Liberation Front , Gory to the Provist caliphate.


Hilariously, he seems to be attempting to charge us with genocide for fighting Drifters, and, well-- anyway. Surely, Tuulinen-haan, you wouldn't consider these ramblings that of any well-balanced Patriot.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Arataka Research Consortium
#126 - 2017-03-06 21:33:27 UTC
That right there does not represent a well-ordered mind, Patriot or otherwise, in my opinion.

I, personally, was a supporter of Tibus Heth during much of his tenure as Executor. It was only when he turned on his comrades that I turned on him. It's a decision I didn't take lightly and it's a decision that still haunts me. A lot of people forget that, for a short time, we were in a shooting war with our own people - and a civil war is the worst sort of war.

I don't think that Heth himself would have approved of much of what was written in that quotation you provided.

As for Provism not being a broad-based coalition, again, I agree with you. I never meant that it was one, however, I meant it required one. Provism should have arisen within the Patriot bloc. Many of the core ideals of Provism are Patriot ideals, after all, but it should have been opposed by the Practical and Liberal blocs. Only Ishukone dared provide that opposition, however, and a single corporation is too easy to marginalise and deride.

But here we are getting quite deeply into things.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#127 - 2017-03-07 00:08:31 UTC
I, for one, think that Caldari presence on the inquest would be a strictly beneficial thing, even if we manage to find a solution internally. Simply disregarding politics doesn't make you exempt from their consequences.
#128 - 2017-03-07 03:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
We must have a game of mind clash sometime Tuulinen-Haan . Next time your in The Forge , you must come over. Ill make some tea , and we can gamble a few Inter Stellar Kredits on a game.
Arataka Research Consortium
#129 - 2017-03-07 03:50:19 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
We must have a game of mind clash sometime Tuulinen-Haan . Next time your in The Forge , you must come over. Ill make some tea , and we gamble a few interstellar Kredits on a game.


Gladly. I'm always up for testing myself.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#130 - 2017-03-07 03:57:01 UTC
Excellent Pieter , i look forward to it comrade.
Arataka Research Consortium
#131 - 2017-03-07 04:30:04 UTC
Mm. No renunciation of your hilarious mail to Kraid-haan, Mr. Horn?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Caldari State
#132 - 2017-03-07 04:40:47 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

As for the passion, well-- I would contend, Tuulinen-haan, that Horn and Kim are not necessarily Patriots. Horn has gladly flown the Dragonaur flag a number of times, and has made some frankly baffling statements along the lines of Provist orthodoxy. Kim, for her combat prowess, so often seems to portray a version of the State at odds with reality, as if the Provist ideal of the State, nevermind that it debases the true ideals of the State.


I see this dishonored woman again tries to speak about me and our State.

I would like to remind everyone that Priano is an infamous slanderer who disgraced her name by lies about Caldari Officer ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560 ) and who has choosen to live in disgrace for her cowardice and unability to answer for her words.

Such a shameful person dares to speak about "true ideals" of the State, but looks like she fails to grasp that concept.

As for her mail "From Mr. Horn", as far as I know, posting of private correspondence is strictly prohibited here, and since she does it so shamelessly, most probably it is just a forged letter by her own hand, that CONCORD won't catch her hand for posting.

Please be ware about liars like her and their slanders. Honor of Caldari State must be protected from Priano and their ilk.

For the State!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arataka Research Consortium
#133 - 2017-03-07 04:52:09 UTC
What shame to you it must be, Kim, that you amount to so much less than I.

As for the evemail, it is indeed perfectly within CRC rules for me to post it. What's more, the only alteration was the addition of linebreaks to aid in legibility. The original mail was even less comprehensible than what I posted.

As to the rest, to be honest, I suspect the reason you aren't more roundly denounced by other State loyalists is how loudly, how incessantly, and how irrationally you berate those who speak against you. For most, it's easier to tolerate your blatant insanity than to actually denounce it for what it is.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Caldari State
#134 - 2017-03-07 04:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As for Provism not being a broad-based coalition, again, I agree with you. I never meant that it was one, however, I meant it required one. Provism should have arisen within the Patriot bloc. Many of the core ideals of Provism are Patriot ideals, after all, but it should have been opposed by the Practical and Liberal blocs. Only Ishukone dared provide that opposition, however, and a single corporation is too easy to marginalise and deride.

Ideals of Provism are basically ideals of hardcore Caldari and proletariat and could have arisen in any part of the State where common working class would be oppressed too much by the managers, where the meritocratic propaganda would be in discrepancy with the reality.

Their methods were crude and rough, but in the end their ideals and goals wouldn't be something that every Caldari didn't put a signature under, and that's why they got power that fast and thoroughly. But even with their uncouth methods they have achieved a lot, more than any other Corporation in last 200 years. They have returned the Home, they made meritocratic reforms. I myself see two major flaws of provist regime:

1) They have stopped the war after Caldari Prime was liberated and signed threaty with Federation. They were too idealistic people and believed that the Federation will honor the threaty. As we already know from the history - gallentes didn't.

2) They didn't finish their meritocratic reforms. They did it thoroughly, yes, but they stopped without touching the upper shelves - Megacorporation CEO themselves. And that indecisiveness was in the end their downfall. Even Tibus Heth himself in the end of Provist reforms should have been eventually removed from his seat, basically, because he is a Hero and ideal, but not a trained CEO.


Also, Mr. Tuulinen, Mr. Horn, I've never myself tried a Mindclash, but I have a long standing desire to try it. Invite me someday, okay?


ADDED:
Ishukone, by the way, was showing opposition not just to Provism, but to the rest of the State. While all other megacorps were moving forward, Ishukone was moving backwards. Considering the State was at war since YC110, what Ishukone did wasn't actually opposition, but it was a straightforward treason. With opposition you just oppose decisions of your opponent, but working directly with enemy and against Caldari, it wasn't just opposition.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#135 - 2017-03-07 05:04:38 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
What shame to you it must be, Kim, that you amount to so much less than I.

As for the evemail, it is indeed perfectly within CRC rules for me to post it. What's more, the only alteration was the addition of linebreaks to aid in legibility. The original mail was even less comprehensible than what I posted.

As to the rest, to be honest, I suspect the reason you aren't more roundly denounced by other State loyalists is how loudly, how incessantly, and how irrationally you berate those who speak against you. For most, it's easier to tolerate your blatant insanity than to actually denounce it for what it is.


And ignore her until she inevitably steps over the proper-behaviour line. Talking to Kim is far more draining than getting sucked off by a Bhaalgorn.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

#136 - 2017-03-07 05:15:34 UTC
You know i havent seen Kraid-Hann in space since i sent that mail. Ive been on home these last few months, and i spent sometime with the Caldari Prime resistance movement. I managed to persuade them , that we should give Kraid a pardon. Wasn't easy , but i did it, he can thank me next time he sees me.

He has nothing to fear , from myself or any members of the resistance movement any longer, his name has been struck off the list. We couldnt find him anyway Priano-Hanni Lol .

#137 - 2017-03-07 05:32:57 UTC
Quote:
Also, Mr. Tuulinen, Mr. Horn, I've never myself tried a Mindclash, but I have a long standing desire to try it. Invite me someday, okay?


Anytime , your always welcome at the Horn residence, Strike Commander.

#138 - 2017-03-07 05:40:25 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

As to the rest, to be honest, I suspect the reason you aren't more roundly denounced by other State loyalists is how loudly, how incessantly, and how irrationally you berate those who speak against you. For most, it's easier to tolerate your blatant insanity than to actually denounce it for what it is.


I would denounce her but that requires me to care about her. I tolerate her in the same way I tolerate the dirt that builds up under my furniture. I could clean it out.. But.. Ehh.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Arataka Research Consortium
#139 - 2017-03-07 05:49:50 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
You know i havent seen Kraid-Hann in space since i sent that mail. Ive been on home these last few months, and i spent sometime with the Caldari Prime resistance movement. I managed to persuade them , that we should give Kraid a pardon. Wasn't easy , but i did it, he can thank me next time he sees me.

He has nothing to fear , from myself or any members of the resistance movement any longer, his name has been struck off the list. We couldnt find him anyway Priano-Hanni Lol .




Riiiiiiiiight.

Horn, you're a waste of biomass.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

#140 - 2017-03-07 05:58:51 UTC
Were I a medical professional this thread would be rather interesting from a pathological standpoint. Ahem.
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