Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Two ideas how to make alpha clones more playable.

Author
#1 - 2017-03-19 18:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
I understand that the main purpose of alpha is to convince peoples to subscribe, but the current alpha could still take few changes to make it more enjoyable or rather less annoying. Even players who are not paying the game are benefiting the game.

1) Move Miasmos, Kryos, Epithal and possibly Hoarder into special edition ships. Gallente has too big advantage in hauling or rather other factions are in disadvantage. If you mine a whole day in venture and want to transport the ore somewhere to compress it or reprocess it its a real pain without Miasmos. All this does is to force players to create a Gallente alt for this task which should not be needed. And yes I am aware you can contract the ore to corp/friend or use courier contract - that doesn't make this a non issue though.

2) While PvE and PvP is good especially thanks to Gnosis and recent addition of Sunesis, ore mining is way too inefficient. Mining gas is profitable enough even for alpha, but ore mining sucks hard. To change that, I propose a new ORE mining frigate or perhaps even different class of ship available to alpha clone (so its not as fast/small as venture) which will have:
- 100% bonus to mining yield, but no bonus to gas mining
- 10.000m3 ore cargohold
- possibly also 2 low slots (but then it can't have the warp stab role bonus obviously)
Such change would make ore mining on alpha bit more profitable. The ship should cost around 15mil ISK - that would make it risky too because of suicide gankers.
Ivy League
#2 - 2017-03-19 18:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
1) the specialized industrials have always been a bit weird. But it's not a big enough problem to be worth fixing just for alphas. As you said. Roll a gallente alt. Or go omega. Problem solved.

2) you already have a specialized mining frigate. It's called the venture. And believe it or not it didn't always exist. No it wasn't designed specifically for alphas. But it was designed to fill precisely rhe role that you are describing.
And it is also one of the only pirate faction ships that alphas are able to fly at all. Which already is a bonus. They could have kept things limited to ONLY your racial shops and NO pirate faction ships at all... I remember mining in a probe back in the day before ventures. So be grateful for what you gave.

So here is a solution to both of your problems. One that I used myself back in the day. Use a destroyer. Even without a mining bonus it can actually pull in higher yield due to the number of extra turrets.
Now it doesn't have an ore hold. So you will need to use a jet can or a secure container to hold the ore as you mine. But when you have a good load. Simply swap to your hauler and pick it up.

Even better grab a friend. Both of you mine together. And when the can starts to get full one of you runs back for a hauler.
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-03-20 02:52:10 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
1) the specialized industrials have always been a bit weird. But it's not a big enough problem to be worth fixing just for alphas. As you said. Roll a gallente alt. Or go omega. Problem solved.

2) you already have a specialized mining frigate. It's called the venture. And believe it or not it didn't always exist. No it wasn't designed specifically for alphas. But it was designed to fill precisely rhe role that you are describing.
And it is also one of the only pirate faction ships that alphas are able to fly at all. Which already is a bonus. They could have kept things limited to ONLY your racial shops and NO pirate faction ships at all... I remember mining in a probe back in the day before ventures. So be grateful for what you gave.

So here is a solution to both of your problems. One that I used myself back in the day. Use a destroyer. Even without a mining bonus it can actually pull in higher yield due to the number of extra turrets.
Now it doesn't have an ore hold. So you will need to use a jet can or a secure container to hold the ore as you mine. But when you have a good load. Simply swap to your hauler and pick it up.

Even better grab a friend. Both of you mine together. And when the can starts to get full one of you runs back for a hauler.

Or grab four or five friends. Cram one of them into a hauler/large-hold ship. Everyone else goes in in destroyers - destroyers tell hauler when their can is full, then the person collects their can and when full runs back to station.
#4 - 2017-03-20 13:55:32 UTC
Alpha clones are free, if you need a ship you cannot fly because of alpha clone restrictions then start a new clone. Yes I know having multiple free accounts accomplishes the same basic thing because those other accounts will give you as a person access to ships you currently cannot fly, but to be honest that was the intent from the beginning. CCP wants to limit what a single alpha character can do so they limit that character to a single race of ships plus a few others like the Genosis. As a person they do not want to force you into that single race of ships restriction so they allow you to have multiple accounts with the added penalty of only having one online at a time.

Another reason to deny your request is the proverbial where does it stop. At least once every week we get a new alpha clones need to have access to _____ ( you fill in the blank) if CCP gave into those requests they might just as well remove ALL restrictions on the alpha clones which would be really bad for their cash flow.

Given that CCP needs to keep heavy restrictions in place on the alpha clones why do you think they should make your requested change and not any of the other change requests that have come before yours?
#5 - 2017-03-20 14:17:58 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Alpha clones are free, if you need a ship you cannot fly because of alpha clone restrictions then start a new clone. Yes I know having multiple free accounts accomplishes the same basic thing because those other accounts will give you as a person access to ships you currently cannot fly, but to be honest that was the intent from the beginning. CCP wants to limit what a single alpha character can do so they limit that character to a single race of ships plus a few others like the Genosis. As a person they do not want to force you into that single race of ships restriction so they allow you to have multiple accounts with the added penalty of only having one online at a time.

Another reason to deny your request is the proverbial where does it stop. At least once every week we get a new alpha clones need to have access to _____ ( you fill in the blank) if CCP gave into those requests they might just as well remove ALL restrictions on the alpha clones which would be really bad for their cash flow.

Given that CCP needs to keep heavy restrictions in place on the alpha clones why do you think they should make your requested change and not any of the other change requests that have come before yours?

Yes I understand there are a lot of request add this and that to alpha. Usually cloak, cyno, PI or something like a beta concept. I read it - those request are not even describing why should CPP do it - why would such change be reasonable. I tried to explain why I think the change I propose is reasonable. And the resposes here did not prooved me wrong. The only responses till now were:
- just make and alt (alt account)
- its not a problem because you can create an alt

Why is anything you can workaround via creating alt(s) suddenly not a problem? I don't think that creating dozen alts to deal with any problem you run into is healthy.

Currently if I want to play alpha clone and be independed on alts/friends (and friends are not always in same sector/logged at same time) it must be Gallente. Even if I like to fly Caldari ships because they are cool looking and I like them, Caldari alpha is in disadvantage when it comes to hauling ore/minerals/pi. Given that the main activity for new player is mining, being able to move the 1m veldspar you just mined 5+J away is quite a basic task.

As for my mining frigate suggestion, I played alpha a lot and I calculated the profits. Gas mining is most profitable and reliable activity be it in ls or wh. PvE can give you even higher profit but its a luckluster, but also more enjoyable. Relic/Data sites in lowsec are quite profitable and doable on alpha. Then there are agent missions, t4 distributions in lowsec can give 1100~ LP 500k ISK only for 1-5 jumps. And every 16missions you can get a trade mission and earn a free +4 implant - quite profitable if you find a good and empty place in ls for that. And then there is ore mining which is far less profitable on alpha than anything else. Even mining better ores won't give you higher profit because you can carry only so much m3 and better ores have greater weight. So when there is a newbie on alpha joining my corporation (not this one this is a forum-posting alt oviously) I tell him to forget mining on alpha and to do pretty much everything else.

So yes I believe there is a need for one additional ore mining ship flyable by alpha clone. The best would be somehow to guarantee you get the bigger profit if you mine in lowsec - which is currently not true. But I don't know how could that be done on alpha clone give its skill limitations.
#6 - 2017-03-20 14:57:55 UTC

  1. Personally I agree this is non-optimal and could be improved on, but this could be more easily fixed by just allowing every clone to train every Racial Industrial to 1.

  2. Gotta disagree with this. Mining will never be super profitable, even for an Alpha. The Venture is *waaaay* better than the old starter racial mining Frigates and Cruisers that people used to start out with. The issue here is that people expect mining to be very profitable when that's just not going to be the case. The profit of mining is always kept in check by the incomes of the people who buy the ships mining creates. If mining ever becomes more profitable than other income sources then more people move into Mining and that pushes the profitability down. See: Recent Rorqual induced mineral price crash for reference.
#7 - 2017-03-20 15:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Personally I agree this is non-optimal and could be improved on, but this could be more easily fixed by just allowing every clone to train every Racial Industrial to 1.

hmm, that would be better solution than making these ships special edition I agree
Evictus.
#8 - 2017-03-20 18:40:46 UTC
2 options for your hauler.

First - compress your ore and haul it in the Venture. Compression is 100:1 so you can haul the equivalent of 500,000 M3 of ore in your Venture. I don't recommend it - that value will make you an attractive gank target but you don't need to haul a full load and the Venture is fast. Note that most public Citadels offer ore compression free of charge.

Second: the standard racial industrial can easily be fit to haul 25,000 M3 using cargo rigs and modules. It's less than a Miasmos but still pretty decent.

An Alpha can fit T2 mining lasers and a T2 mining upgrade. With level 4 skills for the hull bonus, a Venture will harvest a lot of ore - especially if you join a fleet with boosts. If you want more - subsccribe.
Solitaire.
#9 - 2017-03-20 18:57:47 UTC
Mining destroyer
10-12.5k hold
Mining bonus and 3-4 turrets.
No core stability or utility high

(Or alternatively let alphas use mining drone 1s)
Electronics upgrades level 4 is more or less useless
You could get rid of the sp there to give more sp elsewhere.
Having 2 Mining drone i's isn't much but its a still a boost to the venture.

Really no clue why they took away t1 mining drones from the old trial account

#10 - 2017-03-20 22:33:25 UTC
Do you feel you're not getting your $0/month out of your alpha clone?

Easy solution, don't let alphas use a gnosis, and don't let them use gallente haulers. $10.95/mo is nothing. Buy a subscription.
#11 - 2017-03-21 02:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Do you feel you're not getting your $0/month out of your alpha clone?

Easy solution, don't let alphas use a gnosis, and don't let them use gallente haulers. $10.95/mo is nothing. Buy a subscription.


This is... really not true for everyone. When I started playing the cost of an Eve sub was most of my discretionary spending for the month (I was young) and not everyone with a computer that can play Eve can just casually drop ~$120-180 a year.

While I generally agree that Alphas should be limited, for balance at the very least, I don't agree that they should be completely neglected on the balance front, and this sort of attitude that seems to say "Alpha players should be irrelevant" doesn't do the game or the playerbase any favors.
#12 - 2017-03-22 16:56:08 UTC
Do Little wrote:
2 options for your hauler.

First - compress your ore and haul it in the Venture. Compression is 100:1 so you can haul the equivalent of 500,000 M3 of ore in your Venture. I don't recommend it - that value will make you an attractive gank target but you don't need to haul a full load and the Venture is fast. Note that most public Citadels offer ore compression free of charge.

Second: the standard racial industrial can easily be fit to haul 25,000 M3 using cargo rigs and modules. It's less than a Miasmos but still pretty decent.

An Alpha can fit T2 mining lasers and a T2 mining upgrade. With level 4 skills for the hull bonus, a Venture will harvest a lot of ore - especially if you join a fleet with boosts. If you want more - subsccribe.

First - thats the problem here. In order to compress ore I have to travel 5 jumps through lowsec. Not very viable with Tayra which have the 25k only when you max cargo-upgrade it which makes it a one-shot fit not suitable to fly through lowsec. Miasmos has double the cargohold and can be fitted with stabs/intertials. Even if the route wouldn't be through lowsec, its twice as much jumps with the bigger industrial compared to what Gallente alpha clone can do with Miasmos.

Second - if you actually look into my proposal I'm not proposing any big boost to mining yield - only to cargohold to make the mining in venture less annoying. Especially in fleet with boost.
#13 - 2017-03-22 17:00:21 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Do you feel you're not getting your $0/month out of your alpha clone?

Easy solution, don't let alphas use a gnosis, and don't let them use gallente haulers. $10.95/mo is nothing. Buy a subscription.

A reply with depth. I paid 5 months already. Its not about the money here or about me. I have plex in station if I would want to activate it but I don't want to right now. Im having fun on alpha account and while doing so I noticed that not all factions are equal in balance and not all actions are equal in profitability. I simply propose to make it more balanced. Alpha offers quite a lot for a free account, but there is no reason why should those who doesn't want to pay be forced to create another character from opposite faction just to overcome the limit of the faction they chosen for their first character.
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-03-22 20:05:50 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
I remember mining in a probe back in the day before ventures. So be grateful for what you gave.



What happen to battle ship mining :)...
#15 - 2017-03-22 22:23:29 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
A reply with depth. I paid 5 months already. Its not about the money here or about me. I have plex in station if I would want to activate it but I don't want to right now. Im having fun on alpha account and while doing so I noticed that not all factions are equal in balance and not all actions are equal in profitability. I simply propose to make it more balanced. Alpha offers quite a lot for a free account, but there is no reason why should those who doesn't want to pay be forced to create another character from opposite faction just to overcome the limit of the faction they chosen for their first character.


So again, and I can talk slower, you're paying CCP $0/month right now. You have no say in asking for more.

$10.95/month is the cost of buying a single lunch. If that's too expensive for you, then you need to spend less time playing games and more time looking for a job IRL.
#16 - 2017-03-23 00:23:06 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
A reply with depth. I paid 5 months already. Its not about the money here or about me. I have plex in station if I would want to activate it but I don't want to right now. Im having fun on alpha account and while doing so I noticed that not all factions are equal in balance and not all actions are equal in profitability. I simply propose to make it more balanced. Alpha offers quite a lot for a free account, but there is no reason why should those who doesn't want to pay be forced to create another character from opposite faction just to overcome the limit of the faction they chosen for their first character.


So again, and I can talk slower, you're paying CCP $0/month right now. You have no say in asking for more.

$10.95/month is the cost of buying a single lunch. If that's too expensive for you, then you need to spend less time playing games and more time looking for a job IRL.

Its not expensive for me. I have PLEX already in cargo, therefore I paid CPP already. I just didn't activated it because I am taking a break from this game and I want to take it slowly therefore I play on alpha clone right now.

You seems to have a problem with peoples who are on alpha, don't you? Well guess what, its a legitimate way of playing this game. I don't want more from alpha, I want only balance it.
Hole Control
#17 - 2017-03-23 12:32:56 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
I understand that the main purpose of alpha is to convince peoples to subscribe, but the current alpha could still take few changes to make it more enjoyable or rather less annoying. Even players who are not paying the game are benefiting the game.

1) Move Miasmos, Kryos, Epithal and possibly Hoarder into special edition ships. Gallente has too big advantage in hauling or rather other factions are in disadvantage. If you mine a whole day in venture and want to transport the ore somewhere to compress it or reprocess it its a real pain without Miasmos. All this does is to force players to create a Gallente alt for this task which should not be needed. And yes I am aware you can contract the ore to corp/friend or use courier contract - that doesn't make this a non issue though.

2) While PvE and PvP is good especially thanks to Gnosis and recent addition of Sunesis, ore mining is way too inefficient. Mining gas is profitable enough even for alpha, but ore mining sucks hard. To change that, I propose a new ORE mining frigate or perhaps even different class of ship available to alpha clone (so its not as fast/small as venture) which will have:
- 100% bonus to mining yield, but no bonus to gas mining
- 10.000m3 ore cargohold
- possibly also 2 low slots (but then it can't have the warp stab role bonus obviously)
Such change would make ore mining on alpha bit more profitable. The ship should cost around 15mil ISK - that would make it risky too because of suicide gankers.



You know alpha player should not be able to make a good amount of isk. That´s vital.

It may surprise you, but CCP pay´s their employers with $, not ISK !

-1
#18 - 2017-03-23 13:42:21 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Yes I understand there are a lot of request add this and that to alpha. Usually cloak, cyno, PI or something like a beta concept. I read it - those request are not even describing why should CPP do it - why would such change be reasonable. I tried to explain why I think the change I propose is reasonable. And the resposes here did not prooved me wrong.

It simply does not matter how well reasoned you think your arguments is the simple fact remains that CCP does not want an alpha clone character to have access to more than one single race of ships. Because you choose a race for your clone that cannot fly one of the ships you want to have is not a viable reason for CCP to change a ship and in the process force ALL of us Omega clones to train yet another skill simply to keep flying something we can already fly.

Vokan Narkar wrote:
The only responses till now were:
- just make and alt (alt account)
- its not a problem because you can create an alt

Those are the responses you get because those are the proper actions for YOU as a person with an alpha clone to take because as an alpha clone character you have 3 options.
Work with what the game will give you.
Start another free clone so you have access to what you want but cannot currently fly.
Or pay the subscription fee and have what you want.

Vokan Narkar wrote:
Why is anything you can workaround via creating alt(s) suddenly not a problem? I don't think that creating dozen alts to deal with any problem you run into is healthy.

That is the choice CCP has given you.
Run with many alts so your FREE TO PLAY characters can have access to what you want.
Or pay money and get what you want.
There is no person or company on this planet that is FORCING you to play as a alpha clone, you made that decision and like everything else in EvE there are consequences to be paid for that decision, game working as intended.

Vokan Narkar wrote:
Currently if I want to play alpha clone and be independed on alts/friends (and friends are not always in same sector/logged at same time) it must be Gallente. Even if I like to fly Caldari ships because they are cool looking and I like them, Caldari alpha is in disadvantage when it comes to hauling ore/minerals/pi. Given that the main activity for new player is mining, being able to move the 1m veldspar you just mined 5+J away is quite a basic task.

Game working as intended. Free to play in exchange for a limited range of ships you can fly.
Pay your sub with cash or plex and have access to ALL of the ships in the game on the same character.

Vokan Narkar wrote:
So yes I believe there is a need for one additional ore mining ship flyable by alpha clone. The best would be somehow to guarantee you get the bigger profit if you mine in lowsec - which is currently not true. But I don't know how could that be done on alpha clone give its skill limitations.

As mentioned above given that your change would require ALL of the Omega clone characters to train yet another skill so we can continue to fly a ship we can already fly you lose and will just have to start yet another FREE TO PLAY clone.
#19 - 2017-03-23 13:48:27 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
It may surprise you, but CCP pay´s their employers with $, not ISK !

-1

Not this tired old crazy argument again. By the way you are wrong here.
Using plex or paying cash for your sub simply does not matter CCP gets real cash money either way.
If you use plex someone, somewhere and at some point in time had to pay real cash money to buy that plex from CCP.
#20 - 2017-03-23 14:32:33 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
It may surprise you, but CCP pay´s their employers with $, not ISK !

-1

Not this tired old crazy argument again. By the way you are wrong here.
Using plex or paying cash for your sub simply does not matter CCP gets real cash money either way.
If you use plex someone, somewhere and at some point in time had to pay real cash money to buy that plex from CCP.

I believe there point was, if alpha clones are made to the point people wanted to play them unsubscribed then there would be no $ for CCP to pay there employees with.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

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