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[CCPls] War Mechanics Suggestion

Author
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1 - 2017-05-04 01:22:46 UTC
A little background:
Current war-dec mechanics are completely broken as they heavily favor the aggressor making it pointless for the defender to fight the war. Typically, the aggressor is far more powerful than the defender and gathering allies for the defender is an extremely tough job. In almost all cases, the defenders best option is not to fight at all, and ignore the war-dec until the aggressor is bored.

Most aggressor fights are entirely 1 sided (although this can be said of most EVE fights regardless of region Lol). Still, I think there could be value in increment the system to where it allows the defender to even the odds somewhat.


Recommendation:
Make it easier to obtain "temporary" allies for the defender during a wardec.

Allow defenders to send a "fleet invite" to bring allies into the fight. Any neutrals in your fleet will immediate obtain a combat timer for/against the aggressor (15 minutes: renewed by remaining in said fleet or any aggressive action). Thus they will become an additional war-target for the aggressor (yay more targets for them). On the opposite end, you get additional temporary defenders.

Thus if you in a system full of neutrals, and there is a wartarget on your butt, you can ask for help in local and get a lot of potential help with defenders (and make new friends in the process!) Something you can currently do in Null and Low-Sec but you can't in "high-sec" .....
#2 - 2017-05-04 01:32:30 UTC
You get 24 hours to make friends before the dec starts.

If you get notice, so should aggressors.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Brotherhood of Spacers
#3 - 2017-05-04 01:45:19 UTC
Merc corps usually have dozens of out corp alts ready to help with "logi" that you never get warning about. So your argument already is in favor of the aggresor.
#4 - 2017-05-04 01:46:03 UTC
Why can't you do that?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#5 - 2017-05-04 02:18:22 UTC
The lack of incentive to fight for the defender is nothing to do with the wardec system.
It's to do with CCP's systematic nerfing of highsec structures, lack of parity for the upwell structures relative to nullsec making them not worth fighting for, and with an over proliferation of high sec stations also making assets in space not worth defending.
Change that and you will see larger high sec corps form that will fight tooth and nail over capsuleer claims to a system and over war decs.
#6 - 2017-05-04 05:38:07 UTC
Jediseah Tophet wrote:
Typically, the aggressor is far more powerful than the defender and gathering allies for the defender is an extremely tough job. In almost all cases, the defenders best option is not to fight at all, and ignore the war-dec until the aggressor is bored.


Then try being more powerful, and having more friends. A large and powerful group crushing weaker opposition is EVE functioning as intended, it's only a problem if you think that everyone, no matter how weak, should be able to "win" at EVE.

Quote:
Allow defenders to send a "fleet invite" to bring allies into the fight.


Lolno. Congratulations on proposing a system where the gankers make bait corps and then bring in a dozen "neutral" alts to kill you.

Quote:
you can ask for help in local and get a lot of potential help with defenders


I think you seriously overestimate the willingness of highsec residents to engage in PvP of any kind.
#7 - 2017-05-04 12:14:30 UTC
Ok, since hes stopped replying I'll skip to the end.

There is nothing that the aggressors can do that the defenders can't do. The defenders can have neutral logi, they can blob, they can play station games. The reason aggressors are usually so powerful is because they choose who and when to dec (they are prepared and deliberately pick weak targets). This however is countered by the ally system where the defender can have anyone join the dec. But you still get notice.

OP, rather than waiting till a fight is about to happen, reach out to friends or locals before a dec is even happening. Arrange for logi back up, or allies, or anti-logi. This is what we used to do. Different these days as decs aren't as commom and everyone is afraid of their own shadow. But there should still be some people willing to do it.

If not, it's still very easy and cheap to ignore a dec. Make another corp, transfer everyone over.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-05-04 12:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ok, since hes stopped replying I'll skip to the end.

There is nothing that the aggressors can do that the defenders can't do. The defenders can have neutral logi, they can blob, they can play station games. The reason aggressors are usually so powerful is because they choose who and when to dec (they are prepared and deliberately pick weak targets). This however is countered by the ally system where the defender can have anyone join the dec. But you still get notice.

OP, rather than waiting till a fight is about to happen, reach out to friends or locals before a dec is even happening. Arrange for logi back up, or allies, or anti-logi. This is what we used to do. Different these days as decs aren't as commom and everyone is afraid of their own shadow. But there should still be some people willing to do it.

If not, it's still very easy and cheap to ignore a dec. Make another corp, transfer everyone over.


Nice, great idea (last one), quite correct of course, which is why people avoid the totally broken wardec system like the plague.

Thousands of pages have been written, as to exactly why the idea, that if everyone magically got together, everything is solved and unicorns roam the land and everyone gets a pony. /s doesn't work.

Alternatively, in the real world, Pirat just dock up again, and shltpost local. And declare another 59 wardecs.

Just nuke wardecs from orbit, it is the only way to be sure.
#9 - 2017-05-04 13:16:54 UTC
Wardecs are broken. But almost no one agrees on how they should be fixed.

They are absolutely necessary though, for structure removal. So there will be no nuking. I think we are just moving toward a system where wardecs are for removing structures, hunting players requires having a structure, and corps that don't have structures that get decced can just skip corp or move around.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#10 - 2017-05-04 14:11:22 UTC
I think one of the more obvious fixes as an initial change.......

Make it cheaper for smaller groups to wardec someone larger than them.
Make it more expensive to Wardec someone smaller.

and then on the plus side, increase the costs of defender allies.
1st one is free
2nd: 50 million isk
3rd: 100 million isk
4th: 200 million isk
and so on.........

also i remember having multiple wardecs in the past also increased exponentially.....that should return also.
So even if you have 20 wars out @50m a pop, the next 10 should cost 75 each, and so on.
Wrecking Machine.
#11 - 2017-05-04 15:45:06 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

Make it cheaper for smaller groups to wardec someone larger than them.
Make it more expensive to Wardec someone smaller.


I too want perfect safety for my structures from major nullsec entities. And the ability to shoot those same entities in highsec for nearly nothing.
#12 - 2017-05-04 15:59:43 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:

Make it cheaper for smaller groups to wardec someone larger than them.
Make it more expensive to Wardec someone smaller.


I too want perfect safety for my structures from major nullsec entities. And the ability to shoot those same entities in highsec for nearly nothing.


Has nothing to do with "major" nullsec entities. I mean for crying out loud, as Goons prove every year it is nothing to come in and shut down a major trade hub.
Horde bashed the hell out of Perimeter.

If your point is talking about nullsec invading highsec, why should i care? Live out there, but if you want to "Live" in highsec...then things need to change.
And they need to do so because really big blocs should not be in highsec, and this includes the mercs who keep getting bigger, especially the ones no longer acting mercenaries but acting more like nullsec political scum.
Highsec should be more about the smaller wars and conflicts between those that live there, and as it happens today if the bigger boyz want to pick on the smaller boyz....the smaller ones should have a better advantage in teaming up and taking them on.
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-05-04 18:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Wardecs are broken. But almost no one agrees on how they should be fixed.

They are absolutely necessary though, for structure removal. So there will be no nuking. I think we are just moving toward a system where wardecs are for removing structures, hunting players requires having a structure, and corps that don't have structures that get decced can just skip corp or move around.


Absolutely, there is a need for a method to remove structures from HS.

But it doesn't need more add ons to a totally broken wardec mechanic to allow that.

When a car is totally knackered, spewing out clouds of pollution, swerving wildly across the road completely out of control, as it passes by slaughtering pedestrians, other motorists and small animals. While the driver gleefully paints his elite kills on the rusty bodywork.
One doesn't strap a pony and harness to it and call it fixed.

Put it in the Crusher, and buy a prius.

There will be much rejoicing.
Because someone will have FINALLY listened to what everyone who isn't benefiting from it has known for many years.
#14 - 2017-05-05 13:17:55 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Wardecs are broken. But almost no one agrees on how they should be fixed.

They are absolutely necessary though, for structure removal. So there will be no nuking. I think we are just moving toward a system where wardecs are for removing structures, hunting players requires having a structure, and corps that don't have structures that get decced can just skip corp or move around.


Absolutely, there is a need for a method to remove structures from HS.

But it doesn't need more add ons to a totally broken wardec mechanic to allow that.

When a car is totally knackered, spewing out clouds of pollution, swerving wildly across the road completely out of control, as it passes by slaughtering pedestrians, other motorists and small animals. While the driver gleefully paints his elite kills on the rusty bodywork.
One doesn't strap a pony and harness to it and call it fixed.

Put it in the Crusher, and buy a prius.

There will be much rejoicing.
Because someone will have FINALLY listened to what everyone who isn't benefiting from it has known for many years.

I am afraid you are going to be disappointed if and when CCP ever gets around to iterating on the wardec mechanic. They are not going to change it so it "benefits" you. There will be no rejoicing. Any change will be to make it better at its function to allow unfettered conflict and combat to take place in highsec, not isolate people more from other players who want to attack them.

Here is one of the few places I disagree with Daichi: wars are not broken. They more-or-less do what they are intended to do and allow the core gameplay of Eve Online to take place in highsec. Sure, they could use some tweaks and there are significant issues with hunting other players that make targeted conflict, both as relates to wars but also bounty hunting and law enforcement too tedious, but more-or-less they provide a mechanism for players to fight in highsec without the omnipresent NPCs getting involved.

If anything is broken, it is a near complete lack of conflict drivers and advantages for being in a corp. There is very little reward for taking the risk and effort to defend a corp in highsec. Give mechanical reasons and benefits to be in a corp (and a way to restrict these benefits from players just hopping corps), and not only will players now have reasons to mount a defence, the cries of "griefer!" anytime someone tries to attack another group and make content in the sandbox will die down.

Maybe CCP will never get there out of lack of resources or vision, but at least they can easily enough add a social corp or other alternative social structure so that players who don't want to fight can still be part of a social group. What they will not do is just chuck wars out entirely and make highsec corps completely safe yet maintain all the benefits they have now. There are ways I can imagine to let us fight over structures without wars, but they are all more dangerous for highsec carebears who are playing the wrong game than the status quo.

The ability to shoot other players is not a "benefit". It is the core game play of Eve Online. Wars are just a manifestation of this core tenet of the game and is why CCP has had so much trouble finding a system that makes everyone happy. There are just too many players who consciously or unconsciously reject CCP's guiding vision of the game that "everything should be destroyable", at least when it comes to their stuff. They feel entitled to invulnerable corporations (or hauling, mining ships, POSes, etc.) despite the fact that is incompatible with the fundamental design of the game.

The sad thing is there is no reason that social functions need to be tied to the mechanical in-game benefits (and risks) of being in a player corporation. There should be a way to play Eve in a low risk/low reward fashion in a social group. Well there are some I guess (shared chat channel for example) but there is no explicit and obvious game mechanism to do so. Something like that is what is needed for wars, not yet another nerf (like suggested in the OP) to make declaring wars more expensive/risky that will just push aggressors to group up into even larger groups and make wars even more useless for a typical, non-mercenary highsec corp.
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-05-05 18:07:05 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Alderson Point wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Wardecs are broken. But almost no one agrees on how they should be fixed.

They are absolutely necessary though, for structure removal. So there will be no nuking. I think we are just moving toward a system where wardecs are for removing structures, hunting players requires having a structure, and corps that don't have structures that get decced can just skip corp or move around.


Absolutely, there is a need for a method to remove structures from HS.

But it doesn't need more add ons to a totally broken wardec mechanic to allow that.

When a car is totally knackered, spewing out clouds of pollution, swerving wildly across the road completely out of control, as it passes by slaughtering pedestrians, other motorists and small animals. While the driver gleefully paints his elite kills on the rusty bodywork.
One doesn't strap a pony and harness to it and call it fixed.

Put it in the Crusher, and buy a prius.

There will be much rejoicing.
Because someone will have FINALLY listened to what everyone who isn't benefiting from it has known for many years.

I am afraid you are going to be disappointed if and when CCP ever gets around to iterating on the wardec mechanic. They are not going to change it so it "benefits" you. There will be no rejoicing. Any change will be to make it better at its function to allow unfettered conflict and combat to take place in highsec, not isolate people more from other players who want to attack them.

Here is one of the few places I disagree with Daichi: wars are not broken. They more-or-less do what they are intended to do and allow the core gameplay of Eve Online to take place in highsec. Sure, they could use some tweaks and there are significant issues with hunting other players that make targeted conflict, both as relates to wars but also bounty hunting and law enforcement too tedious, but more-or-less they provide a mechanism for players to fight in highsec without the omnipresent NPCs getting involved.

If anything is broken, it is a near complete lack of conflict drivers and advantages for being in a corp. There is very little reward for taking the risk and effort to defend a corp in highsec. Give mechanical reasons and benefits to be in a corp (and a way to restrict these benefits from players just hopping corps), and not only will players now have reasons to mount a defence, the cries of "griefer!" anytime someone tries to attack another group and make content in the sandbox will die down.

Maybe CCP will never get there out of lack of resources or vision, but at least they can easily enough add a social corp or other alternative social structure so that players who don't want to fight can still be part of a social group. What they will not do is just chuck wars out entirely and make highsec corps completely safe yet maintain all the benefits they have now. There are ways I can imagine to let us fight over structures without wars, but they are all more dangerous for highsec carebears who are playing the wrong game than the status quo.

The ability to shoot other players is not a "benefit". It is the core game play of Eve Online. Wars are just a manifestation of this core tenet of the game and is why CCP has had so much trouble finding a system that makes everyone happy. There are just too many players who consciously or unconsciously reject CCP's guiding vision of the game that "everything should be destroyable", at least when it comes to their stuff. They feel entitled to invulnerable corporations (or hauling, mining ships, POSes, etc.) despite the fact that is incompatible with the fundamental design of the game.

The sad thing is there is no reason that social functions need to be tied to the mechanical in-game benefits (and risks) of being in a player corporation. There should be a way to play Eve in a low risk/low reward fashion in a social group. Well there are some I guess (shared chat channel for example) but there is no explicit and obvious game mechanism to do so. Something like that is what is needed for wars, not yet another nerf (like suggested in the OP) to make declaring wars more expensive/risky that will just push aggressors to group up into even larger groups and make wars even more useless for a typical, non-mercenary highsec corp.


In the immortal words of Mandy rice-Davis, "well, you would say that wouldn't you"
#16 - 2017-05-05 18:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Benje en Divalone
Black Pedro wrote:
The ability to shoot other players is not a "benefit". It is the core game play of Eve Online.

Well it's certainly an aspect of the game. I'd even agree that's CCP's intent. I have to ask though, is that working for them?

CCP_Seagull's and CCP_Ghost's FF presentations suggest to me that they're having a new player retention problem. While their efforts at punching up the NPE and making PVE more interesting are laudable I doubt it'll help as much as they think. If it doesn't their choices are to either accept whatever population level they've got or *gasp* adapt.

Two out of the twenty wardecs I've been through had any real combat and even then I've had more meaningful fights in low-sec. All the rest was trade hub griefing which has cost us players. Letting this mechanic fester in this state is doing more harm than good.

Make people miserable and they stop paying you... Who knew?
#17 - 2017-05-05 18:49:37 UTC
Benje en Divalone wrote:
CCP_Seagull's and CCP_Ghost's FF presentations suggest to me that they're having a new player retention problem.


EVE has always had a new player retention program, because people get into the game based on pretty pictures of spaceships without really understanding what kind of game they're playing, and then discover the hard way that it isn't WoW in space and quit. This is just an unavoidable effect of being a niche-market game, and compromising the design principles that make EVE special would be a terrible idea.

The secondary issue in new player retention is the difficulty in getting involved in all the cool stuff if you don't have experienced friends recruiting you. It's not that new players are ragequitting because they get killed, it's that they literally have no idea where to find the kind of awesome experiences that people brag about when discussing EVE. And the solution here is to improve the "how to get where you want to be" guides, not to remove all risk.

Quote:
All the rest was trade hub griefing which has cost us players.


There is no such thing as "trade hub griefing", and if you believe otherwise EVE is not the game for you.
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-05-05 21:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Benje en Divalone wrote:
CCP_Seagull's and CCP_Ghost's FF presentations suggest to me that they're having a new player retention problem.


EVE has always had a new player retention program, because people get into the game based on pretty pictures of spaceships without really understanding what kind of game they're playing, and then discover the hard way that it isn't WoW in space and quit. This is just an unavoidable effect of being a niche-market game, and compromising the design principles that make EVE special would be a terrible idea.

The secondary issue in new player retention is the difficulty in getting involved in all the cool stuff if you don't have experienced friends recruiting you. It's not that new players are ragequitting because they get killed, it's that they literally have no idea where to find the kind of awesome experiences that people brag about when discussing EVE. And the solution here is to improve the "how to get where you want to be" guides, not to remove all risk.

Quote:
All the rest was trade hub griefing which has cost us players.


There is no such thing as "trade hub griefing", and if you believe otherwise EVE is not the game for you.


Of course, it appears the answer is to make it easier to exterminate new players at the earliest opportunity, to make sure that when they attempt to gather together, they find the experience a soul destroying one. Only then will they prove worthy after being through that cruicible of fire to join such wise and elite players as yourself, to rain destruction on those who dare try to play eve. /sRoll

If you train players that joining a HS corporation is a disastrous idea, and encourage them that to avoid contact with others is the optimal choice, one is guaranteeing they never find the cameraderie and awesome experiences they should.

We are the rare few who made it through that, some went deep into null, or wormholes, and eventually found friends and comrades, some found comfort exterminating others in HS, a satisfying experience, those who are bullied and abused in their youth often do that to others when they mature. (In game in this case)

We are all damaged by it, though still here.

Most were not so lucky, and we have lost them, they were our future friends and they were wasted like chaff in the field.

That is the tragedy.

We mourn our fallen friends, they should have shared the stars with us.
#19 - 2017-05-05 21:30:35 UTC
Not really. Eve is a niche game, it's not for everyone. It's designed as a pvp playground and its meant to be harsh.

At some point youre going tp to get shot at. And its unlikely to be a fair fight. Thats what a sandbox is. If you don't feel like playing because of unfair fights then eve isnt for you.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-05-05 21:34:55 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Not really. Eve is a niche game, it's not for everyone. It's designed as a pvp playground and its meant to be harsh.

At some point youre going tp to get shot at. And its unlikely to be a fair fight. Thats what a sandbox is. If you don't feel like playing because of unfair fights then eve isnt for you.



You would think with all the years of practice, one would come up with a new line occasionally.

You may have missed it, but this is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with fair fights or otherwise.

But it is easier I guess to pull line number 22 out of your ass pouch, because it might be suitable, you might get lucky sometimes.
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